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1.) Ar-mink - 02/11/2014
There is a proposed bill that would make an antler restriction on whitetails in Oklahoma. The problem is it's only during gun season, and unless it's a misprint it for 6 or more points on one side.:bang:
[url]http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2013-14bills/HB/HB2978_int.rtf[/url]
Which brings me to the question, does your state have an antler restriction? And do you like it or think it even helps grow more mature bucks?
[url]http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2013-14bills/HB/HB2978_int.rtf[/url]
Which brings me to the question, does your state have an antler restriction? And do you like it or think it even helps grow more mature bucks?
2.) billy b - 02/11/2014
In Texas the counties controll the restrictions, a lot of them have none.
3.) Swamp Fox - 02/11/2014
Unless I'm forgetting something, we don't have any antler restrictions in the Carolinas other than on some selected WMAs or private lands. I don't think there are any counties with restrictions. I have lost track of the situation in Virginia, except that I know a few WMAs have them. Georgia has some counties and (probably) some WMAs with ARs but it's been a while since I've hunted there. The experience in Georgia has been positive, from what I know, and I'd say the same about any Va./Carolina WMA I know of. ARs are undoubtedly a positive on private lands I am familiar with.
When I started putting my own restrictions on myself a long time ago, I started seeing a better class of buck [I]on public land[/I] within a couple of years. I don't know of anyone else who was being selective on those properties, but I wouldn't doubt there were some. The majority weren't, though, so I think the take-away is that even small individual efforts can make a difference.
I am almost always a supporter of ARs, but usually favor width restrictions vs. point restrictions. If biologists suggest that points rules get you to the same place or better (and not just that they are "easier") in a particular area, I'll defer to them, but I don't think most points rules are all that well thought-out. Maybe that is changing, though.
When I started putting my own restrictions on myself a long time ago, I started seeing a better class of buck [I]on public land[/I] within a couple of years. I don't know of anyone else who was being selective on those properties, but I wouldn't doubt there were some. The majority weren't, though, so I think the take-away is that even small individual efforts can make a difference.
I am almost always a supporter of ARs, but usually favor width restrictions vs. point restrictions. If biologists suggest that points rules get you to the same place or better (and not just that they are "easier") in a particular area, I'll defer to them, but I don't think most points rules are all that well thought-out. Maybe that is changing, though.
4.) DParker - 02/11/2014
[QUOTE=billy b;16459]In Texas the counties controll the restrictions, a lot of them have none.[/QUOTE]
TPWD claims that the data indicates the restrictions are working. I haven't gone over it so I don't really know. I can only say that, based purely on personal observation anecdotes (which are worth exactly what you pay for them) it seems like on average I've seen the quality of public land bucks improve over time...that is, for those seasons in which I actually see bucks.
TPWD claims that the data indicates the restrictions are working. I haven't gone over it so I don't really know. I can only say that, based purely on personal observation anecdotes (which are worth exactly what you pay for them) it seems like on average I've seen the quality of public land bucks improve over time...that is, for those seasons in which I actually see bucks.
5.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
Deer hunting or antler shopping.
Here in NY there are some areas that have an antler restriction and the rest of the state has no antler restrictions.
Bow, gun season and muzzle loader. No data on weather or not the restriction has done anything. The DEC is prolly running a test. Been like this for a few years now.
There's a lobby trying to get antler restrictions across the state. It's all about creating a revenue pool.
The normal, everyday average hunter. Ya know the guy that can't get out much or can't seem to find a good area to hunt or has very small limited area
he can hunt. Hardly ever fills his tag, might get a doe once and a while. The normal everyday regular poor sap that loves to hunt. Waits ALL year for his week off from work. He'd die for a chance to get out with his friends on a hunt. Who would love to fill his freezer which feeds his family. Like the guys ya know at work or other places.
Even some of us here at HC or even back into AW and BC days. Or get a shot at one much less something in the 3 1/2 tear old or older range.
I don't favor antler restrictions. Venison is too delicious. If I can put 3 or 4 deer in the freezer I can save a TON on the food bill.
Here in NY there are some areas that have an antler restriction and the rest of the state has no antler restrictions.
Bow, gun season and muzzle loader. No data on weather or not the restriction has done anything. The DEC is prolly running a test. Been like this for a few years now.
There's a lobby trying to get antler restrictions across the state. It's all about creating a revenue pool.
The normal, everyday average hunter. Ya know the guy that can't get out much or can't seem to find a good area to hunt or has very small limited area
he can hunt. Hardly ever fills his tag, might get a doe once and a while. The normal everyday regular poor sap that loves to hunt. Waits ALL year for his week off from work. He'd die for a chance to get out with his friends on a hunt. Who would love to fill his freezer which feeds his family. Like the guys ya know at work or other places.
Even some of us here at HC or even back into AW and BC days. Or get a shot at one much less something in the 3 1/2 tear old or older range.
I don't favor antler restrictions. Venison is too delicious. If I can put 3 or 4 deer in the freezer I can save a TON on the food bill.
6.) Ar-mink - 02/12/2014
I agree with you on the venision tasting to good to pass up. I've been fortunate enough to out 9 deer in the freezer over the past two hunting seasons. Add that to what I raise and butcher and I haven't bought meat from a store in over 3 years. Well except chicken, mainly because the wife is to attached to let me butcher any of ours.
Personally I like the idea of antler restrictions. But we are blessed enough to have an over pooulation of does and upto 7 over the counter doe tags to fill the freezer. I've always made the rule for myself that "if you won't be proud of it don't kill it". That rule resulted in me not killing a buck for almost 10 years of hunting. I feel like my efforts have paid off as of late as I killed a Ok record book buck in 2012 and one that might scratch in for 2013.
Personally I like the idea of antler restrictions. But we are blessed enough to have an over pooulation of does and upto 7 over the counter doe tags to fill the freezer. I've always made the rule for myself that "if you won't be proud of it don't kill it". That rule resulted in me not killing a buck for almost 10 years of hunting. I feel like my efforts have paid off as of late as I killed a Ok record book buck in 2012 and one that might scratch in for 2013.
7.) luv2bowhunt - 02/12/2014
We have AR's in PA and they have been working. I don't know of anyone who even disputes that fact anymore.
Deerminator and I have discussed this back and forth over the years but to me it boils down to this. For the average, everyday hunter like he describes, the difference is shooting a spike or 4 pt. every other year, or having a chance at a decent 8 or 10 pt. every 3 or 4 years.
That's the reality that I've seen over the last 10 yrs. Hunters aren't getting bucks as often, but when they do they are really excited to get one.
Doe hunting hasn't changed one bit. If you like meat, shoot a doe. That hasn't changed at all, EXCEPT, for the fact that for several years they increased the doe tags and INTENTIONALLY lowered the deer numbers.
So, even seeing a doe is not as easy as it was in the 80's or 90's, but that had little or nothing to do with AR's.
In my area the restriction is 3 pts. to an antler, points being at least an inch long. Width may be a better indicator, but much, much more difficult for Deerminator's average Joe to gauge.
Bottom line is, we've crossed the finish line and it is working. Proof is at the taxidermy shop each year. Huge, huge jump in the average bucks being brought in.
Son-in-law just got a buck in from PA that scored over 170", and that from the northern PA mountains. That never happened on a semi-regular scale like it is happening now.
Deerminator and I have discussed this back and forth over the years but to me it boils down to this. For the average, everyday hunter like he describes, the difference is shooting a spike or 4 pt. every other year, or having a chance at a decent 8 or 10 pt. every 3 or 4 years.
That's the reality that I've seen over the last 10 yrs. Hunters aren't getting bucks as often, but when they do they are really excited to get one.
Doe hunting hasn't changed one bit. If you like meat, shoot a doe. That hasn't changed at all, EXCEPT, for the fact that for several years they increased the doe tags and INTENTIONALLY lowered the deer numbers.
So, even seeing a doe is not as easy as it was in the 80's or 90's, but that had little or nothing to do with AR's.
In my area the restriction is 3 pts. to an antler, points being at least an inch long. Width may be a better indicator, but much, much more difficult for Deerminator's average Joe to gauge.
Bottom line is, we've crossed the finish line and it is working. Proof is at the taxidermy shop each year. Huge, huge jump in the average bucks being brought in.
Son-in-law just got a buck in from PA that scored over 170", and that from the northern PA mountains. That never happened on a semi-regular scale like it is happening now.
8.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
So alot of PA hunters shoot 170 class bucks regularly:cf:
I gota start hunt'n alittle closer to the border :-)
I gota start hunt'n alittle closer to the border :-)
9.) luv2bowhunt - 02/12/2014
Nope, never said alot of guys shoot 170". Point was the taxidermy shop gets a couple 160-170 class bucks each year, compared to the never that took place before AR's. I can regularly expect to see a few of those come in each year, most from public land.
I know it doesn't apply to you, but most guys would at least like a chance at a decent buck. That is a possibility now compared to the same old spike and 4 pt. we did for a century or more.
I know it doesn't apply to you, but most guys would at least like a chance at a decent buck. That is a possibility now compared to the same old spike and 4 pt. we did for a century or more.
10.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
I know, I'm just screw'n with ya.
If it was true I'd be hunting the game lands in Tobi Hannah, alot.
I think a better way to grow larger antlers and have eveybodys hunting spot be more like an outdoor deer hunting TV studio.
Would to have a compleat shut down of any deer hunting season say every 2 out of 3 years. Hunt for 3 years and then do something else for the next 2 years. Repeat cycle.
If it was true I'd be hunting the game lands in Tobi Hannah, alot.
I think a better way to grow larger antlers and have eveybodys hunting spot be more like an outdoor deer hunting TV studio.
Would to have a compleat shut down of any deer hunting season say every 2 out of 3 years. Hunt for 3 years and then do something else for the next 2 years. Repeat cycle.
11.) luv2bowhunt - 02/12/2014
That is an interesting idea, would be worth a shot in a few trial areas, see what happens. But I don't think any of us on here believes that what we see on "deer hunting TV studio" is grounded in any sense of reality at all.
Bob Peck said it best, it is 'deer hunting porn' on the outdoor channel. That makes Ventilayer a porn star. :wink
Bob Peck said it best, it is 'deer hunting porn' on the outdoor channel. That makes Ventilayer a porn star. :wink
12.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
:-) Yea, Quick Release Films INC
13.) Swamp Fox - 02/12/2014
What does Bob Peck know about porn is what I want to know.
Wait...No, I don't want to know...LOL
Wait...No, I don't want to know...LOL
14.) Swamp Fox - 02/12/2014
The overwhelming majority at the game commissions want to tippy-toe around the idea of mandatory ARs. I don't have much sympathy for those weenies in areas where you allow multiple bucks and does are legal.
There are those regulators who understand that ARs will improve herd health and quality, along with some measure of hunter satisfaction (Who wouldn't like to see more mature bucks in the woods?) and then there are others (in many areas) who don't care a fig about quality deer hunting as long as the deer population goes down. In some areas, if your proposal to improve the quality of your hunts conflicts with a government plan to kill more deer, regardless of type, you lose. Plug in any type/measurement of "quality." You lose.
There are those regulators who understand that ARs will improve herd health and quality, along with some measure of hunter satisfaction (Who wouldn't like to see more mature bucks in the woods?) and then there are others (in many areas) who don't care a fig about quality deer hunting as long as the deer population goes down. In some areas, if your proposal to improve the quality of your hunts conflicts with a government plan to kill more deer, regardless of type, you lose. Plug in any type/measurement of "quality." You lose.
15.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
Just for the sake of discussion;
Who says our heards are low quality and how is the quality measured?
If for some reason a herd is unhealthy, define unhealthy. What is the name of the disease and
does it taint the meat?
Who says our heards are low quality and how is the quality measured?
If for some reason a herd is unhealthy, define unhealthy. What is the name of the disease and
does it taint the meat?
16.) Swamp Fox - 02/12/2014
Age structure, sex ratio, nutrition, weight, fawn survival/recruitment...I could probably think of a few more but I have to scoot for a while in a minute.
Based on these measures, I'm sure you'd find some places where people would call a herd "unhealthy." Certainly not "optimally healthy." But in other areas, maybe most, it would be about improving herd health, not taking it from a catastrophically unhealthy state to a healthy one.
If you consider underweight, overpopulated herds with sex ratios all out of whack "unhealthy," though, which plenty of people do, there's plenty of room for improvement in a lot of places.
There are several diseases that spread in overpopulated herds, or in herds where deer are forced into close contact with each other to feed or water. Some of those (maybe most) taint the meat. Or at least make it unattractive and therefore wasted from a hunting perspective.
I certainly don't think disease is the only indicator of an "unhealthy" herd, though, if that's what you're getting at.
Later, gator. I'll be back in a bit.
P..S. BTW, from what I can tell, I'm not sure NY feels a great sense of urgency to expand ARs. I don't get the feeling they are concerned about herd health or even have health improvement on their minds...Meaning I don't get the sense that they feel anything's wrong (anywhere?). That's just a quick assessment on my part, though, and I could be wrong and I certainly don't know the details on the ground. You can look at your game commission's website to see the deer management and AR reports to see where I'm coming from on that. I skimmed them yesterday.
Based on these measures, I'm sure you'd find some places where people would call a herd "unhealthy." Certainly not "optimally healthy." But in other areas, maybe most, it would be about improving herd health, not taking it from a catastrophically unhealthy state to a healthy one.
If you consider underweight, overpopulated herds with sex ratios all out of whack "unhealthy," though, which plenty of people do, there's plenty of room for improvement in a lot of places.
There are several diseases that spread in overpopulated herds, or in herds where deer are forced into close contact with each other to feed or water. Some of those (maybe most) taint the meat. Or at least make it unattractive and therefore wasted from a hunting perspective.
I certainly don't think disease is the only indicator of an "unhealthy" herd, though, if that's what you're getting at.
Later, gator. I'll be back in a bit.
P..S. BTW, from what I can tell, I'm not sure NY feels a great sense of urgency to expand ARs. I don't get the feeling they are concerned about herd health or even have health improvement on their minds...Meaning I don't get the sense that they feel anything's wrong (anywhere?). That's just a quick assessment on my part, though, and I could be wrong and I certainly don't know the details on the ground. You can look at your game commission's website to see the deer management and AR reports to see where I'm coming from on that. I skimmed them yesterday.
17.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
I think NY is in test mode as far as the antler restriction goes. They seem to be focusing on the pig population.
Our herds are healthy and have high quality jeans. Lots of older big antlered deer here.
It's just not easy to get them. And dumb luck helps alot.
Our herds are healthy and have high quality jeans. Lots of older big antlered deer here.
It's just not easy to get them. And dumb luck helps alot.
18.) luv2bowhunt - 02/12/2014
Also, you have to take into consideration the entire ecosystem. Deer may have healthy bodies and genes, but they may be having an adverse effect on the habitat and other species. Car collisions, farmland, nesting birds, you name it, someone studies it and is lobbying about it.
Lots of things for an agency to consider with herd health, not just if a deer looks pretty.
Lots of things for an agency to consider with herd health, not just if a deer looks pretty.
19.) DParker - 02/12/2014
I'm no Holiday Inn Express, nor did I stay at a wildlife biologist's last night, but I would think that when assessing the "health" of a heard you would need to include not only it's immediate condition and ability to withstand normal environmental changes (extra cold winters, periodic drought conditions, etc), but also its ability to withstand/rebound from out-of-the-ordinary things like outbreaks of new/unusual diseases.
20.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;16517]Also, you have to take into consideration the entire ecosystem. Deer may have healthy bodies and genes, but they may be having an adverse effect on the habitat and other species. Car collisions, farmland, nesting birds, you name it, someone studies it and is lobbying about it.
Lots of things for an agency to consider with herd health, not just if a deer looks pretty.[/QUOTE]
That and more but is that the norm, or just a highlighted stastic
Lots of things for an agency to consider with herd health, not just if a deer looks pretty.[/QUOTE]
That and more but is that the norm, or just a highlighted stastic
21.) bluecat - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Deerminator;16499]:-) Yea, Quick Release Films INC[/QUOTE]
:wink
:wink
22.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
Rats, I was editing my last post and the 10 min thing cut me off.
I was on a roll to:-)
I was on a roll to:-)
23.) Hunter - 02/12/2014
I guess I would have to ask what is the goal for implementing antler restrictions? Is it for herd "health?" Increasing age structure? Betterment of the overall hunting experience? I haven't been reading anything about them so I really don't don't know what the ultimate goal is.
24.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
I said something about defining norm for our hunting areas and some other stuff about the size of the herd in relationship to increased loss of habitat.
Also something about the confusing terms of DQM and Antler management.
Also something about the confusing terms of DQM and Antler management.
25.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Hunter;16529]I guess I would have to ask what is the goal for implementing antler restrictions? Is it for herd "health?" Increasing age structure? Betterment of the overall hunting experience? I haven't been reading anything about them so I really don't don't know what the ultimate goal is.[/QUOTE]
Increasing age structure, yes but only of the bucks.
It is about antler fetish and big business. The deer hunting business is in the billions of dollors / year bracket.
Of course if money is involved so is politics.
Increasing age structure, yes but only of the bucks.
It is about antler fetish and big business. The deer hunting business is in the billions of dollors / year bracket.
Of course if money is involved so is politics.
26.) Hunter - 02/12/2014
I found this about the Texas AR experiment.............
The Experiment
During the late '90s, landowners and hunters in Austin, Colorado, Fayette, Lavaca, Lee, and Washington counties requested a hunting regulation that would offer more protection to immature bucks. As is the case in many of the one-buck counties in Texas, hunting pressure on bucks was extremely high in this particular area, and very few bucks were allowed to reach maturity. Poor age structure within a buck herd has many adverse effects, including poor hunter satisfaction. Research results indicate that poor age structure among bucks results in longer breeding seasons, and therefore, longer fawning seasons - which is a factor contributing to poor fawn production.
In response to an overwhelming request for a change, the TPW Commission adopted an experimental antler-restriction regulation in 2002 which read as follows:
A legal buck deer is defined as having a hardened antler protruding through the skin AND:
At least one unbranched antler; or
An inside spread measurement between main beams of 13 inches or greater; or
Six points or more on one antler.
The primary goals of the experimental antler-restriction regulation were:
Improve the age structure of the buck herd;
Increase hunter opportunity; and
Encourage landowners and hunters to become more actively involved in better habitat management.
This regulation was designed to reduce the intense hunting pressure on bucks, particularly young bucks. As can be seen in the chart below, the proportion of bucks <3.5 years old in the harvest dropped from 79% (prior to the experimental regulation) to <30% during the past 4 hunting seasons. Prior to the regulation, only 20% of the harvested bucks were at least 3.5 years old. However, during the past 4 hunting seasons, more than 70% of the harvested bucks were at least 3.5 years old. It appears that the 2005-06 modification to the regulation (described below) provided more relief to the 2.5- and 3.5-year-old bucks, while a few more yearlings (i.e., "spikes") were harvested, as expected. It is important to note that buck harvest dropped 38% during the first year of the experiment, as compared to the average harvest from 1997-2001. However, harvest during the second year of the experiment (2003-04) exceeded the 5-year average prior to the regulation change. This may be considered a 1-year "sacrifice" for those accustomed to bagging a buck annually; however, the severity and duration of this "sacrifice" period is largely dependent on fawn production the year prior to the regulation change and the first year of the regulation. Modifications to this regulation (described below) appear to minimize the severity of the "sacrifice."
The Experiment
During the late '90s, landowners and hunters in Austin, Colorado, Fayette, Lavaca, Lee, and Washington counties requested a hunting regulation that would offer more protection to immature bucks. As is the case in many of the one-buck counties in Texas, hunting pressure on bucks was extremely high in this particular area, and very few bucks were allowed to reach maturity. Poor age structure within a buck herd has many adverse effects, including poor hunter satisfaction. Research results indicate that poor age structure among bucks results in longer breeding seasons, and therefore, longer fawning seasons - which is a factor contributing to poor fawn production.
In response to an overwhelming request for a change, the TPW Commission adopted an experimental antler-restriction regulation in 2002 which read as follows:
A legal buck deer is defined as having a hardened antler protruding through the skin AND:
At least one unbranched antler; or
An inside spread measurement between main beams of 13 inches or greater; or
Six points or more on one antler.
The primary goals of the experimental antler-restriction regulation were:
Improve the age structure of the buck herd;
Increase hunter opportunity; and
Encourage landowners and hunters to become more actively involved in better habitat management.
This regulation was designed to reduce the intense hunting pressure on bucks, particularly young bucks. As can be seen in the chart below, the proportion of bucks <3.5 years old in the harvest dropped from 79% (prior to the experimental regulation) to <30% during the past 4 hunting seasons. Prior to the regulation, only 20% of the harvested bucks were at least 3.5 years old. However, during the past 4 hunting seasons, more than 70% of the harvested bucks were at least 3.5 years old. It appears that the 2005-06 modification to the regulation (described below) provided more relief to the 2.5- and 3.5-year-old bucks, while a few more yearlings (i.e., "spikes") were harvested, as expected. It is important to note that buck harvest dropped 38% during the first year of the experiment, as compared to the average harvest from 1997-2001. However, harvest during the second year of the experiment (2003-04) exceeded the 5-year average prior to the regulation change. This may be considered a 1-year "sacrifice" for those accustomed to bagging a buck annually; however, the severity and duration of this "sacrifice" period is largely dependent on fawn production the year prior to the regulation change and the first year of the regulation. Modifications to this regulation (described below) appear to minimize the severity of the "sacrifice."
27.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
Cool stuff. They mentioned fawn production. That would be a concideration of buck production hence there should be restricktions on doe's as well.
We had a go around here with a business group that had not only their own acreage but leased many small farms, any chunk of wood lands
they could get. They had there own data to show us. What was really good was alot of data was brought forth as proof was from out of state and obtained from controlled study areas. They started the lobby and pushed to public town hall type meetings around the state. The audiances were planted with pro land owners of the bussiness group.
Long story short; The state was buying into the monitary side of there pitch.
It didn't pass so hunters won this one.
My point is ;
Where is the information we're getting coming from? Is it relieable ? Who beifits from it ? Who planted it and why ?
Especialy if it doesn't agree with what our own years and years experiences in the same places tell us.
We had a go around here with a business group that had not only their own acreage but leased many small farms, any chunk of wood lands
they could get. They had there own data to show us. What was really good was alot of data was brought forth as proof was from out of state and obtained from controlled study areas. They started the lobby and pushed to public town hall type meetings around the state. The audiances were planted with pro land owners of the bussiness group.
Long story short; The state was buying into the monitary side of there pitch.
It didn't pass so hunters won this one.
My point is ;
Where is the information we're getting coming from? Is it relieable ? Who beifits from it ? Who planted it and why ?
Especialy if it doesn't agree with what our own years and years experiences in the same places tell us.
28.) Swamp Fox - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Deerminator;16531]Increasing age structure, yes but only of the bucks.
It is about antler fetish and big business...[/QUOTE]
If you scratch below the surface of Quality Deer Management principles (and you can skip the capital letters there if you want to) you'll find that that is not true. Not true about the age structure concerns and management techniques applying only to bucks, not true that no one works toward a proper age structure for the doe population, and not true that it's about an antler fetish.
Hunting is big business in small towns. Otherwise, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass compared to thousands of other industries, or to the overall economy of most states (very much including New York State).
It is about antler fetish and big business...[/QUOTE]
If you scratch below the surface of Quality Deer Management principles (and you can skip the capital letters there if you want to) you'll find that that is not true. Not true about the age structure concerns and management techniques applying only to bucks, not true that no one works toward a proper age structure for the doe population, and not true that it's about an antler fetish.
Hunting is big business in small towns. Otherwise, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass compared to thousands of other industries, or to the overall economy of most states (very much including New York State).
29.) Deerminator - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;16539]
Hunting is big business in small towns. Otherwise, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass compared to thousands of other industries, or to the overall economy of most states (very much including New York State).[/QUOTE]
All the Gander MT and Dicks and Bass pro, Wal-Mart, K-mart etc, and all the specialty stores and manufacturers. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
Really BIG numbers. Not just an acne problem.
Principles----- may be. Actually-----no. It's part of the pitch.
Many times in the documentation you can see wear the word deer and buck is use synonymously.
Hunting is big business in small towns. Otherwise, it's a pimple on an elephant's ass compared to thousands of other industries, or to the overall economy of most states (very much including New York State).[/QUOTE]
All the Gander MT and Dicks and Bass pro, Wal-Mart, K-mart etc, and all the specialty stores and manufacturers. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
Really BIG numbers. Not just an acne problem.
Principles----- may be. Actually-----no. It's part of the pitch.
Many times in the documentation you can see wear the word deer and buck is use synonymously.
30.) luv2bowhunt - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Deerminator;16536]Where is the information we're getting coming from? Is it relieable ? Who beifits from it ? Who planted it and why ?
Especialy if it doesn't agree with what our own years and years experiences in the same places tell us.[/QUOTE]
The question I'd have to ask you is where is your information coming from? For example when the PA Game Comm. presents studies they have that show how AR's have increased the age structure for bucks, and that the age structure for does is and always has been elevated beyond the age of bucks, what info am I going to present that cancels out their studies?
I remember having this same discussion with the nay-sayers when PA was debating the issue. The question I always asked was 'How do deer differ from any other species?'
Should the Fish Comm. be allowed to tell us what age class fish we can keep? After all, that's what determines length. What if I like to eat 6" smallmouths and 4" trout? What about small game? Should they be able to tell me only 2 grouse?
The Game Comm. did have an interesting study on doe survival rates. On public land in northern PA, hunters were only killing 10-15% of the does they were tracking. That would explain why they routinely check doe killed by hunters and find 8 and 9 year old does.
In my humble opinion, the ones who are benefitting from AR's is hunters.
Especialy if it doesn't agree with what our own years and years experiences in the same places tell us.[/QUOTE]
The question I'd have to ask you is where is your information coming from? For example when the PA Game Comm. presents studies they have that show how AR's have increased the age structure for bucks, and that the age structure for does is and always has been elevated beyond the age of bucks, what info am I going to present that cancels out their studies?
I remember having this same discussion with the nay-sayers when PA was debating the issue. The question I always asked was 'How do deer differ from any other species?'
Should the Fish Comm. be allowed to tell us what age class fish we can keep? After all, that's what determines length. What if I like to eat 6" smallmouths and 4" trout? What about small game? Should they be able to tell me only 2 grouse?
The Game Comm. did have an interesting study on doe survival rates. On public land in northern PA, hunters were only killing 10-15% of the does they were tracking. That would explain why they routinely check doe killed by hunters and find 8 and 9 year old does.
In my humble opinion, the ones who are benefitting from AR's is hunters.
31.) Wild Bob - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Deerminator;16495]I know, I'm just screw'n with ya.
If it was true I'd be hunting the game lands in Tobi Hannah, alot.
I think a better way to grow larger antlers and have eveybodys hunting spot be more like an outdoor deer hunting TV studio.
Would to have a compleat shut down of any deer hunting season say every 2 out of 3 years. Hunt for 3 years and then do something else for the next 2 years. Repeat cycle.[/QUOTE]
Yipes! I understand the thought process on that...but (no offense) I sure wouldn't want to have to live that out; don't think I could live in a state that had those regs.
I could also see that first year back hunting being a total circus. At least with an annual season, you'll have many of the casual hunters doing their thing off and on. But with a season back on after being off for a year...well, you could count on having ALL the yahoos in the mix out there hunting at once. I would think it would be like a mild weather opening day of rifle season only 5x worse.
If it was true I'd be hunting the game lands in Tobi Hannah, alot.
I think a better way to grow larger antlers and have eveybodys hunting spot be more like an outdoor deer hunting TV studio.
Would to have a compleat shut down of any deer hunting season say every 2 out of 3 years. Hunt for 3 years and then do something else for the next 2 years. Repeat cycle.[/QUOTE]
Yipes! I understand the thought process on that...but (no offense) I sure wouldn't want to have to live that out; don't think I could live in a state that had those regs.
I could also see that first year back hunting being a total circus. At least with an annual season, you'll have many of the casual hunters doing their thing off and on. But with a season back on after being off for a year...well, you could count on having ALL the yahoos in the mix out there hunting at once. I would think it would be like a mild weather opening day of rifle season only 5x worse.
32.) Swamp Fox - 02/12/2014
[QUOTE=Deerminator;16544]All the Gander MT and Dicks and Bass pro, Wal-Mart, K-mart etc, and all the specialty stores and manufacturers. BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
Really BIG numbers. Not just an acne problem.
Principles----- may be. Actually-----no. It's part of the pitch.
Many times in the documentation you can see wear the word deer and buck is use synonymously.[/QUOTE]
Big numbers are relative. That's all I'm saying. If you think that hunting is big, pick any three other industries and see where hunting stacks up. Those who think hunting will never go down the tubes because it is such a "big industry" are deluding themselves, just the same way as people who ascribe anything they don't like about hunting to "big money" are. This is not to say people don't have a financial interest in hunting. Many do. But whether there is anything wrong with that is an open question, and depends on the situation.
I don't know what "documentation" you're looking at, but any loony-tune can draw up a petition or put out a press statement. If you talk to people who have the proper understanding about how hunters can play a role in deer management, I think you'll be able to put things that you object to or support in proper perspective.
Here's the Quality Deer Management Association's position on ARs:
[url]http://www.qdma.com/articles/qdmas-position-on-mandatory-antler-restrictions[/url]
Really BIG numbers. Not just an acne problem.
Principles----- may be. Actually-----no. It's part of the pitch.
Many times in the documentation you can see wear the word deer and buck is use synonymously.[/QUOTE]
Big numbers are relative. That's all I'm saying. If you think that hunting is big, pick any three other industries and see where hunting stacks up. Those who think hunting will never go down the tubes because it is such a "big industry" are deluding themselves, just the same way as people who ascribe anything they don't like about hunting to "big money" are. This is not to say people don't have a financial interest in hunting. Many do. But whether there is anything wrong with that is an open question, and depends on the situation.
I don't know what "documentation" you're looking at, but any loony-tune can draw up a petition or put out a press statement. If you talk to people who have the proper understanding about how hunters can play a role in deer management, I think you'll be able to put things that you object to or support in proper perspective.
Here's the Quality Deer Management Association's position on ARs:
[url]http://www.qdma.com/articles/qdmas-position-on-mandatory-antler-restrictions[/url]
33.) Deerminator - 02/13/2014
Good disscusion;
Who or what is QDMA?
Who or what is QDMA?
34.) Deerminator - 02/13/2014
[QUOTE=Wild Bob;16548]Yipes! I understand the thought process on that...but (no offense) I sure wouldn't want to have to live that out; don't think I could live in a state that had those regs.
I could also see that first year back hunting being a total circus. At least with an annual season, you'll have many of the casual hunters doing their thing off and on. But with a season back on after being off for a year...well, you could count on having ALL the yahoos in the mix out there hunting at once. I would think it would be like a mild weather opening day of rifle season only 5x worse.[/QUOTE]
I bet it would.
Here in NY we used to have what was called a " Party Permit " Up to 5-6 hunters would group together, pay a fee, and fill out the forms in order to be allowed to kill 1 doe. 1 doe / 5 hunters
Talk about crazyness in the woods. THAT was WWIII. And you could find alot of carcesses in the spring that were never recovered or removed from the woods which ever the case might be.
Anything can happen.
I could also see that first year back hunting being a total circus. At least with an annual season, you'll have many of the casual hunters doing their thing off and on. But with a season back on after being off for a year...well, you could count on having ALL the yahoos in the mix out there hunting at once. I would think it would be like a mild weather opening day of rifle season only 5x worse.[/QUOTE]
I bet it would.
Here in NY we used to have what was called a " Party Permit " Up to 5-6 hunters would group together, pay a fee, and fill out the forms in order to be allowed to kill 1 doe. 1 doe / 5 hunters
Talk about crazyness in the woods. THAT was WWIII. And you could find alot of carcesses in the spring that were never recovered or removed from the woods which ever the case might be.
Anything can happen.
35.) Swamp Fox - 02/13/2014
[QUOTE=Deerminator;16570]Good disscusion;
Who or what is QDMA?[/QUOTE]
QDMA is the association that promotes the hunting practices, land management, conservation efforts and hunter education which support "quality deer management."
Quality deer management is in whole or in part any one of a number of practices or combination of practices that promote the idea of protecting and improving the health of (particularly young) deer and letting them approach or reach their real potential, with the characteristics and habits of a more balanced and natural population than what many areas have known for decades. There is not any one "QDM way" but there is a "QDM philosophy." How a hunter or landowner chooses to implement QDM varies widely, and should reflect the particulars of his own situation.
Here's perhaps a better way of explaining it:
[url]http://www.qdma.com/corporate/mission[/url]
Browse the site, particularly the articles. It is a great source of information, much of it about deer biology and habits, with input from or actually written by biologists. The QDMA is the most biologist-heavy regular-joe hunting/conservation organization out there, in my semi-informed opinion, and a lot of the hunter education material that comes out of the QDMA is straight from the biologists.
Who or what is QDMA?[/QUOTE]
QDMA is the association that promotes the hunting practices, land management, conservation efforts and hunter education which support "quality deer management."
Quality deer management is in whole or in part any one of a number of practices or combination of practices that promote the idea of protecting and improving the health of (particularly young) deer and letting them approach or reach their real potential, with the characteristics and habits of a more balanced and natural population than what many areas have known for decades. There is not any one "QDM way" but there is a "QDM philosophy." How a hunter or landowner chooses to implement QDM varies widely, and should reflect the particulars of his own situation.
Here's perhaps a better way of explaining it:
[url]http://www.qdma.com/corporate/mission[/url]
Browse the site, particularly the articles. It is a great source of information, much of it about deer biology and habits, with input from or actually written by biologists. The QDMA is the most biologist-heavy regular-joe hunting/conservation organization out there, in my semi-informed opinion, and a lot of the hunter education material that comes out of the QDMA is straight from the biologists.
36.) Swamp Fox - 02/13/2014
Since we were talking about some of this yesterday:
37.) Deerminator - 02/13/2014
Corporate as in for profit corporate organization?
38.) Swamp Fox - 02/13/2014
"Corporate" as in headquartered, united, organized, commonly focused.
The QDMA is a non-profit group.
As in Quail Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Federation, Ducks Unlimited, Grouse Lovers USA and Occupy Wall Street...
[url]http://www.qdma.com/corporate/about[/url]
The QDMA is a non-profit group.
As in Quail Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Federation, Ducks Unlimited, Grouse Lovers USA and Occupy Wall Street...
[url]http://www.qdma.com/corporate/about[/url]
39.) Deerminator - 02/13/2014
Any idea where they get there operating funds from.
40.) Swamp Fox - 02/13/2014
Sure... The same place other conservation organizations get theirs: Charitable donations, membership fees, and fundraising activities.
This might help a little:
[url]http://www.qdma.com/corporate/annual-report[/url]
This might help a little:
[url]http://www.qdma.com/corporate/annual-report[/url]
41.) Wild Bob - 02/13/2014
:pop: LOL
42.) Ar-mink - 02/17/2014
It looks like the AR proposed bill for Oklahoma was dropped due to the miswritten language in the bill. The bill was supposed to be for six points or more combined Points during gun season, instead someone worded it as 6 points on one side. :bang: From what I've read the office of which ever politician proposed the bill became so flooded with calls, e-mails, and people walking in they had to drop it before they had a chance to rewrite it.
43.) Swamp Fox - 02/18/2014
Writing is fundimentle...