1.) luv2bowhunt - 12/13/2013

For you guys still chasing a buck, yesterday I saw the biggest buck I've seen all year, and it was outside my office window.

He was tending a doe and even hopped up on her and....well.......you know. That makes sense, Dec. 12 would be 28 days later than what appeared to be the peek of the rut here, the week of Nov. 11-16.

Anyone else seeing any rut action going on?


On a side note, I also saw 2 bald eagles from my office, doing that locked together fall out of the sky thing. All of this wildlife right on the edge of the congested mess of Camp Hill/Mechanicsburg/Harrisburg.

This old quarry is an oasis of wildlife. Over the last 2 years, I've seen deer, turkeys, eagles, beaver, mink, fox, coyote, zillions of geese and ducks, blue herons, painted turtles, and the old quarry is filled with smallmouth bass. A tiny bit of sanity on the edge of the madness of civilization.

2.) Ventilator - 12/13/2013

Sitting in stand in Sc now. Perfect conditions, IMO, nary a deer in sight. Should be good timing tho.

3.) bluecat - 12/13/2013

Luv2, apparently the quarry is off limits to hunting?

4.) Wild Bob - 12/13/2013

"A tiny bit of sanity on the edge of the madness of civilization." - Luv2

I like your saying...I've come to the conclusion that there are days when something such as you point out, and/or may be a good cup of coffee are the best we can hope for that day!

5.) luv2bowhunt - 12/13/2013

[QUOTE=bluecat;13571]Luv2, apparently the quarry is off limits to hunting?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Company policy says no, but I do fish at lunchtime once in awhile.

6.) bluecat - 12/13/2013

[QUOTE=Wild Bob;13572]"A tiny bit of sanity on the edge of the madness of civilization." - Luv2

I like your saying...I've come to the conclusion that there are days when something such as you point out, and/or [B]may be a good cup of coffee are the best we can hope for that day[/B]![/QUOTE]

+ a shot of whiskey in that coffee

7.) bluecat - 12/13/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13573]Yes. Company policy says no, but I do fish at lunchtime once in awhile.[/QUOTE]

I would go talk to the powers that be and tell them you have no intention of actually killing anything.

8.) Hunter - 12/13/2013

1st rut is kicking in now. All I can say is "Holy Cow!"

9.) Hunter - 12/13/2013

[QUOTE=bluecat;13578]I would go talk to the powers that be and tell them you have no intention of actually killing anything.[/QUOTE]

Kapow!

10.) NEBigAl - 12/13/2013

This was around the time last year when second rut hit in Ne, I had a better December than my October and November combined!

11.) DParker - 12/13/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13573]Yes. Company policy says no, but I do fish at lunchtime once in awhile.[/QUOTE]

My bosses won't let me keep bourbon in my desk for the occasional post-lunch imbibing. Some companies are just damned unreasonable.

12.) luv2bowhunt - 12/13/2013

I know. We have a 'no firearms on company property' policy too. On many days that seems unreasonable.

13.) luv2bowhunt - 12/16/2013

Co-worker's son shot a buck on Sat. evening, in the snow storm, chasing a doe.

14.) Ventilator - 12/16/2013

I shot some does this weekend finally. Two of them on friday were impregnated. Fetus`s were approx 2.5" long. Usually the main rut is the last week of Oct in that area. Appears that held true this season as well.

I checked two of my cameras friday afternoon around 2p as well. There were 4 different bucks and 7 does that got their pics taken between 10am-1234pm on Friday! ALso , a group of 7 pigs came thru at 1018am on one cam. No other pics of deer since 11/30 otherwise. I saw a 4 pt from the stand in one of the spots friday evening. Evidently ,Friday was THE day to be in the woods.

15.) Ventilator - 12/16/2013

I just looked up a Fetal Scale on the QDMA website. Putting fetus size at 2" from forehead to rump puts the conception date at 10 weeks. Right around Oct 13-17, 2013. This is about the time we were seeing plenty of bucks on the property. Sightings had been up since Oct 1. We saw a significant drop in deer sightings the weeks after 10/20/2013. This would indicate peak breeding in Central SC in my opinion. Pretty much all the deer went nocturnal and sightings were almost nonexistent from Nov 10 until 12/13/2013. Deer were seen all this weekend as well as the camera pics i mentioned. It appears the colder weather is encouraging the deer to move and hit food during daylight hours . Also, its worth noting scraping activity picked up again. I found at least 5 freshly opened scrapes over the weekend. Hoping this coming weekend is a good one.

16.) luv2bowhunt - 12/16/2013

So Dec. 10-17 would be your third rut? The second 28 day period after the initial breeding season.

17.) Ventilator - 12/16/2013

I think thats entirely logical based on past observations in SC. There is always a surge of buck activity around this time down there. Scraping and overall daytime movements spike during the last two weeks of December. This year i will be taking the kids Jan 4th for the youth day. If there does turn out to be a 3rd rut, this weekend should see good activity if the weather holds out as predicted. Its been stated by biologists in the past that SC rut can drag out from oct -dec. We have a pretty good buck/doe ratio however. Still plenty more does but not as bad as other areas of the state. We have killed 21 does and 4 bucks, in addition ,there were two button bucks accidently shot. We have 2100 acres and 13 members. 6-700 acres of our lease is a sanctuary of unhuntable pine thickets.

18.) Go Bucks - 12/16/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13602]Co-worker's son shot a buck on Sat. evening, in the snow storm, chasing a doe.[/QUOTE]

why on earth was he chasing a doe? creepy stuff going on in PA

19.) Ventilator - 12/16/2013

probably how luvvy pulled that ligament. :ach:

20.) Bob Peck - 12/16/2013

All observations on "the" rut are anecdotal, local and cannot possibly be substantiated, replicated or even compared. It's like debating what scent works best.

How often do you hunt? Where do you hunt? What were the weather conditions where you hunt? How patterned are the deer you hunt? What's the buck-to-doe ratio? What & where are the food supplies? What kind of pressure on the herd? What bad/inconsequential were the effect of predators on the deer population? Was the moon phase visible or obscured by clouds? On what days during the moon phase? How habituated are the deer? On and on and on ...

The deer on my 'lil 70 acre honey hole and the expanse of the 260 acre areas separated by 70 miles couldn't be more different in terms of "the" rut. The 70 acres had a lazy feel with few sightings and had more pressure (dogs chasing deer, surveyors intruding, coyotes like I've never seen, poor mast yield) but yet I killed 5 deer so far.

The 260 is much richer in food sources, more diverse in terrain, had a ton of activity and sightings and cover but I didn't manage to connect on a single deer. I didn't witness any activity I could call a "rut". No wild shenanigans. Both spots went POOF! with nothing in the last few outings. Someone pulled the plug.

What conclusions can I draw? None.

I hunted hard and smart and practiced and dang if it didn't feel just as awesome to be out there as it usually does.

21.) Go Bucks - 12/17/2013

Oh... here i thought.... bucky chasing nookie = rut. Bucky no get nookie is ohbh's life story

22.) luv2bowhunt - 12/17/2013

I hunt, scout, talk about hunting, alot. To all kinds of hunters in our company and in church and in all avenues of life here in PA.

Same story from 90% here. Lots of rutting activity the second week of Nov. then all got quiet. The second week of Dec., 28 days later, there is a resurgence of rutting sign again.

Anecdotal observations from large groups of hunters hunting the same general deer herd, is a much better way to come to a logical conclusion, than reading Charles Alsheimer books and watching the Outdoor Channel.

23.) Ventilator - 12/17/2013

Hey Bob, what is your take on the Fetal scale i mentioned? The QDMA scammers seem to put alot of faith in them for predicting conception dates. Based on the measurements of fetus`s in both does, it appeared breeding occurred approximately the same week in both deer. It seems , based on past studies along with anectdotal evidence , that the SC/GA rut seems to linger on thru the months of Oct-Dec. Im sure this is due to unbalanced buck/doe ratios throughout the state. There is a 5 buck limit in half of SC and unlimited bucks in the lowcountry. Fetal measurements, In my opinion, are the only surefire way to pin down exact weeks of conception. What say you on the matter?

24.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13630].

Anecdotal observations from large groups of hunters hunting the same general deer herd, is a much better way to come to a logical conclusion, than reading Charles Alsheimer books and watching the Outdoor Channel.[/QUOTE]

Ka-POW!

LOL...

25.) Ohbuckhunter - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Go Bucks;13626]Oh... here i thought.... bucky chasing nookie = rut. Bucky no get nookie is ohbh's life story[/QUOTE]

That's pretty much sums it up since Jess is pregnant. :)

26.) Go Bucks - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13630]I hunt, scout, talk about hunting, alot. To all kinds of hunters in our company and in church and in all avenues of life here in PA.

Same story from 90% here. Lots of rutting activity the second week of Nov. then all got quiet. The second week of Dec., 28 days later, there is a resurgence of rutting sign again.

Anecdotal observations from large groups of hunters hunting the same general deer herd, is a much better way to come to a logical conclusion, than reading Charles Alsheimer books and watching the Outdoor Channel.[/QUOTE]

what? luv2 actually made a point worth considering? come on man.... tell us... who wrote that for you??

I have to agree. I take the point that my viewpoint is skewed by seeing only 200 acres, but the same exact reports were coming in from people hunting all over the area, and the state for that matter. I hunted 5 straight 3 day weekends in an area I have hunted for 20 years, and it was a strange year.

as far as fetal measurements, good luck with a valid sample size for that.

27.) Bob Peck - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13630]Anecdotal observations from large groups of hunters hunting the same general deer herd, is a much better way to come to a logical conclusion, than reading Charles Alsheimer books and watching the Outdoor Channel.[/QUOTE]

A.
An anecdote is an anecdote no matter how you slice it. By their very nature anecdotes are subjective and open to wide interpretation.

an·ec·dote
ˈanikˌdōt/
noun
noun: anecdote; plural noun: anecdotes

1.
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.

B.
Logical conclusions can only be reached by the individual hunter in the locations he hunts with the deer he has direct experience hunting. The logical conclusion he/she may reach is personalized in this way and may/may not bear any similarity to a property immediately adjacent or in the same state.

C.
Sitting around Cracker Barrel drinking coffee with a "focus group" of hunters comparing anecdotal observations is about as useless as assuming they are hunting the same general herd. The only exception I can think of is if these hunters were hunting properties that are contiguous.

D.
Some states utilize/appeal to hunters to log sightings in online portals as a way in which to quantify what is actually happening. Without wide participation this too ends up being a digital focus group of a limited number of hunters.

E.
Charlie Alsheimer is not a formerly educated wildlife biologist. He is a photographer. Enough said.

F.
The Outdoor Channel is Deer, Turkey and Elk porn.

28.) Bob Peck - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Ventilator;13631]Hey Bob, what is your take on the Fetal scale i mentioned? [/QUOTE]

I honestly don't have a take for a couple of reasons. First, I'm a meat hunter. My goal each year is to donate at least 10-12 deer between bow, gun and muzzleloader. I'm halfway there this year with not a whole lot of time left as our season in VA ends 01.05.14 Brown is *not* down with me. I do have some semblance of standards and picky about shot selection but I am unrelenting with does.

Secondly, after 4 decades in the deer woods I don't get that granular. I read as much deer biology stuff as I can take without falling asleep but after a while my brain cells fire and send a message to my body "Just hunt."

29.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

We should get someone on this thread who knows what he's talking about...


LOL

30.) DParker - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13640]C.
Sitting around Cracker Barrel drinking coffee with a "focus group" of hunters comparing anecdotal observations is about as useless as assuming they are hunting the same general herd.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but at least that method affords one the opportunity to get a decent breakfast to go with that side of not-a-synonym-for-data.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13644]We should get someone on this thread who knows what he's talking about...[/QUOTE]

What would be the fun in that?

31.) luv2bowhunt - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13640]B.
[B]Logical conclusions can only be reached by the individual hunter in the locations he hunts with the deer he has direct experience hunting.[/B] The logical conclusion he/she may reach is personalized in this way and may/may not bear any similarity to a property immediately adjacent or in the same state.
[/QUOTE]

If that is true, than virtually any conclusion I make in the deer woods can only be personalized and would apply to no one else, unless they are hunting in the same small area I am.

And if that is true, there's not much sense in trying to gain wisdom from others, because they are just telling me the anecdotal evidence that only applies to them.

Not much sense in forums and books and writers for that matter. What you see only applies to you and what I see only applies to me, and even then I could be wrong.

I keep it simple. If I see bucks chasing and breeding does, I know it is rut activity. If someone else sees the same, they are seeing rut activity.

For the life of me I can't see why observed rut behavior is only 'a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident'.

32.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

Bob just likes to argue, I think...:wink

33.) luv2bowhunt - 12/17/2013

I think his great learning has driven him to madness.:-)

34.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

LOL...

:fire:...

35.) Ventilator - 12/17/2013

This is awesome.....Luv2 making sense! Gobucks was right!

Swampster......since you arent hunting (IM JOKING) , what is your opinion on the Fetal Scale measurements. I dont actively search out does to kill and slice open, but, if the opportunity arises i shoot a few. Its interesting to me finding out when conception dates were . I like to compare what me and other hunters were seeing during that supposed week or two of the month. Otherwise, i hate to kill impregnated does,never know how many future bucks that you are taking out.

36.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

I hope to hit it hard next week before I go nuts, LOL...

I don't see any reason why the FS measurements can't be trusted. Backdating to conception by watching a live fawn drop can't be the only way to get in the neighborhood. I've never heard any biologist say the scale-method is out of bounds. I've never used one, though.

Since a pregnant doe is as likely to be carrying another doe as easily as a buck, I don't worry about shooting one. You're either getting two or three deer off your property. That's more groceries for the ones who are left, and since young bucks tend to disperse from the home ranges of their mothers anyway, I don't think there's much point or even validity in the idea of trying to stockpile them.

37.) bluecat - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13655]I hope to hit it hard next week before I go nuts, LOL...[/QUOTE]

Bring your slide rule. This stuff is way more difficult than I imagined.

38.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

I no, right?

I mean, like, who really nos all this stuff anyway?

:grin:

39.) Bob Peck - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13646]If that is true, than virtually any conclusion I make in the deer woods can only be personalized and would apply to no one else, unless they are hunting in the same small area I am. [/QUOTE]

Correct.

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13646]And if that is true, there's not much sense in trying to gain wisdom from others, because they are just telling me the anecdotal evidence that only applies to them.[/QUOTE]

Proverbs 10:23
[I]Doing wrong is like a joke to a fool, but wisdom is pleasure to a man of understanding. [/I]

Comparing wisdom and anecdotal evidence is like comparing apples to concrete:

Sharing wisdom (i.e. not bowhunting in torrential rain) enriches.
Sharing anecdotal stories is entertainment.

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13646]Not much sense in forums and books and writers for that matter. What you see only applies to you and what I see only applies to me, and even then I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]

The "sense" in forums is the same as a hunting camp only forums fall way, way short. Forums devolve into petty bickering, are dominated by the same people and once in a while have some nuggets of value. Both hunting camp and online forums have elements of fellowship, a sharing of tactics, gear and methodology.

I'm not sure you meant to lump all books into one single category. As far as hunting books or videos for me they fall into four main categories:

-Instructional (and not necessarily informed instructional)
-Educational (deer biology, studies, etc)
-Fiction
-Journals of hunts

Certainly there must be some value in one of the categories above?

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13646]I keep it simple. If I see bucks chasing and breeding does, I know it is rut activity. If someone else sees the same, they are seeing rut activity.[/QUOTE]

I keep it simple too. Hunt.

40.) Bob Peck - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13647]Bob just likes to argue, I think...:wink[/QUOTE]

I prefer discourse over argue as everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[B]dis·course[/B]
noun \ˈdis-ˌkȯrs, dis-ˈ\

: the use of words to exchange thoughts and ideas

: a long talk or piece of writing about a subject

[B]ar·gue[/B]
verb \ˈär-(ˌ)gyü\

: to give reasons for or against something : to say or write things in order to change someone's opinion about what is true, what should be done, etc.

41.) Ohbuckhunter - 12/17/2013

This is one of the most intelligent threads in HC. Well done y'all.

42.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13661]I prefer discourse over argue as everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[B]dis·course[/B]
noun \ˈdis-ˌkȯrs, dis-ˈ\

: the use of words to exchange thoughts and ideas

: a long talk or piece of writing about a subject

[B]ar·gue[/B]
verb \ˈär-(ˌ)gyü\

: to give reasons for or against something : to say or write things in order to change someone's opinion about what is true, what should be done, etc.[/QUOTE]


"Yes, but I came here for an argument!!"

43.) luv2bowhunt - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13659]Comparing wisdom and anecdotal evidence is like comparing apples to concrete:

Sharing wisdom (i.e. not bowhunting in torrential rain) enriches.
Sharing anecdotal stories is entertainment.
[/QUOTE]

OK, I'll bite. Please explain the difference between wisdom and one's own observations. To me they can't be seperated. The things I see, observe, and behavior I study, is what gives me greater wisdom. Wisdom is the sum of what I see and have learned, from outside sources and from inside.

I'll agree with your premise, that if I try to take my observations and apply them to the scrub brush of Texas, it probably is like comparing apples to concrete. (Thank you for saying concrete and not cement. That drives me nuts)

But I'm not sure how you seperate observations and wisdom. To share my wisdom, I must share my observations.

Swamp Fox prefers contradiction over dis-course.

[B]con·tra·dic·tion[/B] - noun \ˌkän-trə-ˈdik-shən\ : the act of saying something that is opposite or very different in meaning to something else


No it isn't.

44.) Ventilator - 12/17/2013

i think ill sit back and read from here on out.....its gettin good. :tu:

45.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13665]Swamp Fox prefers contradiction over dis-course.

[/QUOTE]


No I don't.

46.) Bob Peck - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13665]OK, I'll bite. Please explain the difference between wisdom and one's own observations. To me they can't be seperated. The things I see, observe, and behavior I study, is what gives me greater wisdom. Wisdom is the sum of what I see and have learned, from outside sources and from inside.[/QUOTE]

You spelled separated wrong. :re:

[I]"There is a wisdom of the head, and a wisdom of the heart."[/I]
Charles Dickens

You observe a buck mounting a doe. Without knowledge, experience and wisdom it is simply a buck mounting a doe. If you are wise, you know this only happens for a brief period during the year no matter where you hunt the species. It is the nature of the species. In some places there will be more than one brief period of this ritual. Still in other regions and specific locales, under certain conditions, there may only be one. Regardless, if your goal is to kill a mature deer the advantage is yours during this period as the wise know this is likely the only period in which a deer will make mistakes. If you are "wise" you combine the observations, the knowledge and the tactics into a strategy knowing full well there is no guarantee and knowing above all else, patience is key.

If you "observe" a buck following a scent trail and assume buying scent (pick a flavor) will lead that deer to your stand you lack the wisdom (accumulated knowledge, experiences and observations) to know which scent to use, when and the appropriate application. This is why deer urine is a $200 million industry because the hunting consumer assumes these scents work year round, no matter what. These consumers lack wisdom and enterprising marketeers across every corner of the hunting industry count on this lack of wisdom to make sales.

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13665]But I'm not sure how you seperate observations and wisdom. To share my wisdom, I must share my observations.[/QUOTE]

You spelled separated wrong again. This pattern indicates you are not wise.

You cannot be or become wise without the cumulative effect of knowledge, experience and observation.

You can however observe and share that observation without understanding how the observation is relevant or connected to anything else or even the true meaning of what you observed. The sky is blue. That is an observation.

The sky is blue because because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colors because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight. This is wisdom.

Now I must exercise my wisdom and realize I've just played Aristotle of the Deer Woods and therefore must drink beer and contemplate my navel.

47.) luv2bowhunt - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13672]You spelled separated wrong again. This pattern indicates you are not wise.[/QUOTE]

Finally, something we agree on.

Explain to me again, how me seeing a buck chase a doe on Dec. 12 is anecdotal. It is what it is, and was what it was.

At least I made you blow the dust off of the keyboard, sit up straight in the chair, and use spell check the rest of your posting career..........'cause if I ever see something..............:wink


Glad to see you post again, even if you are a creep. Might as well end this dis-course as a true forum. You suck.:grin:

48.) DParker - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13646]For the life of me I can't see why observed rut behavior is only 'a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident'.[/QUOTE]

Really? I thought you were married?

49.) DParker - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13663]"Yes, but I came here for an argument!!"[/QUOTE]

No you didn't. You came here for an [I]argument[/I].

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13672]Now I must exercise my wisdom and realize I've just played Aristotle of the Deer Woods and therefore must drink beer and contemplate my navel.[/QUOTE]

Good choice. Playing Socrates would have required hemlock in place of the beer.

50.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13672]
The sky is blue because because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colors because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight. This is wisdom.

[/QUOTE]

No it's not. :wink

It's information. The understanding of it is knowledge.

But neither is wisdom.

:cool:

51.) DParker - 12/17/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13678]No it's not. :wink

It's information. The understanding of it is knowledge.

But neither is wisdom.

:cool:[/QUOTE]

It depends on which definition of "wisdom" you're using, one of which is essentially "scholarly knowledge".

52.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

Bob seems to be using "wisdom" in the sense of "good sense" and "acting on knowledge", etc., so I will, too.

Haven't tried to confirm this elsewhere, but I suspect most people prioritize "wisdom" in that way over wisdom as "knowledge in a vacuum." :wink

53.) luv2bowhunt - 12/17/2013

The real question is this, can we gain any knowledge from the observations others have of the whitetail deer, or must I discard it, because it is unrelated to my area?

That to me is what he is saying, and I still find that to be an illogical position to take.

Maybe he's just zeroing in on the rut, and only the rut applies to this. Not sure if Aristotle will return, I'm going home, so I'll find out someday.

54.) Swamp Fox - 12/17/2013

I think since nothing is ever equal, you are left to your own devices, completely on your own, curled up and weeping on the shower floor...

As it should be.

LOL

55.) Bob Peck - 12/18/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13681]Bob seems to be using "wisdom" in the sense of "good sense" and "acting on knowledge", etc., so I will, too. [/QUOTE]

Bob is using this definition of wisdom:

wisdom (ˈwɪzdəm)

— n
1. \tthe ability or result of an ability to think and act utilizing knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight
2. \taccumulated knowledge, erudition, or enlightenment

Related: sagacious

56.) Bob Peck - 12/18/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13682]The real question is this, can we gain any knowledge from the observations others have of the whitetail deer, or must I discard it, because it is unrelated to my area? [/QUOTE]

If the question is wide, as in [I][B]"observations others have of BEHAVIOR of whitetail deer"[/B][/I] then of course a large funnel is better than a narrow. Take it all in. Learn. Listen. Question. Anecdotal or fact, the more in the pipe, the more pieces of the puzzle you possess.

If the question is narrow, as in [I][B]"observations others have of RUT BEHAVIOR of whitetail deer in the adjacent property, county, state, region, hemisphere"[/B][/I] then your funnel is filled with anecdotes that while interesting (who doesn't love a good deer story) are of little value to conditions on the ground where you hunt.

Example:
"Experts" predicted a larger than average mast crop this year for my area in Central VA. Since the mast crop was non-existent last year I was excited. These were "experts" after all. State biologists and people in the "know". Learned men and women.

I know from first-hand experience in both locations where I hunt when the mast crop is heavy there are two stands of white oak that will see intense early season activity. I'll get a good look at allot of deer when the mast crop is heavy. I paid close attention during spring turkey and throughout the summer but wasn't seeing the predicted "larger than average mast crop" develop. Bottom line? Uh Oh. It never happened in my little slice of heaven even though anecdotal evidence on two adjacent farms was the opposite of what I was experiencing. I keyed in anyway and shot a few does during early bow from the scant mast that hit the forest floor. The point here is even with "expert" and anecdotal information the reality was quite different. I didn't ignore or discount either but reality is reality and nothing "expert" or anecdotal changed that.

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13682]Maybe he's just zeroing in on the rut, and only the rut applies to this. [/QUOTE]

In this thread yes, I was zeroing in on the rut or the perceived lack of.

Here are some other examples of other useless anecdotal discussion:

1. Which deer scent (urine, synthetics) works best?
2. How accurate is hunting according to moon phase?
3. Which cervid is the hardest to hunt?
4. Are scent control garments worth the money?
5. Is QDMA really for rich guys with allot of land or can anyone participate?

I'm blessed to have made a living in an industry that thrives on making mountains out of molehills, hyping the living heck out of the littlest innovation and fabricating controversy where none exists in order to sell things, release money from your wallet and satisfy a hunters insatiable appetite for content. If you're in the industry long enough nothing is truly new and all is merely masticated, regurgitated and spun in a different direction.

Sheesh. That sounded negative and I guess it is. Didn't mean to be a Debbie Downer during Christmas. Sorry about that! :laugh:

57.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2013

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;13699]If the question is wide, as in [I][B]"observations others have of BEHAVIOR of whitetail deer"[/B][/I] then of course a large funnel is better than a narrow. Take it all in. Learn. Listen. Question. Anecdotal or fact, the more in the pipe, the more pieces of the puzzle you possess.

If the question is narrow, as in [I][B]"observations others have of RUT BEHAVIOR of whitetail deer in the adjacent property, county, state, region, hemisphere"[/B][/I] then your funnel is filled with anecdotes that while interesting (who doesn't love a good deer story) are of little value to conditions on the ground where you hunt.

[/QUOTE]


Bob, this is really a distinction without a difference. If it's a good thing to have more pieces to the puzzle in the one case, it's a good thing to have more pieces in the other.

Now, what you are able to DO with those pieces is a another story, but one can't accept observations in one case and dismiss them as having "little value" in the next.

If a hunter were to say to himself that "Luv2 saw a buck chasing a doe in Pa. today so I'd better hustle up my tree here in Mississippi," that would not make a lot of sense, I will grant you. But hope springs eternal, does it not? I mean, if it didn't, why would people get married---and remarried---in the face of all the "anecdotal" evidence? :wink






"You know what this means, Norm---No size restrictions, and screw the limit!"


(Just thought I'd throw that out there....:wink)

.

58.) luv2bowhunt - 12/18/2013

I think anecdotal observations of others can certainly help to confirm what I’ve seen myself.

My son-in-law runs a taxidermy shop in the county where I do most of my hunting. It is interesting each year to see when most bucks are being brought into the shop.

This year was an interesting year. Archery season started Oct. 5 and he only had 1 or 2 brought in the first week. This trend continued until a noticeable spike occurred on Nov. 11-16. He had 30 or so brought in through that period and the biggest single day kill occurred on Nov. 16, one day before the full moon. There were 12-13 brought in that were killed on the last day, and that is a lot for a small shop like his.

That lined up with what I was observing myself. I saw a big increase in rutting activity starting on Nov. 9 and saw several bucks and a shooter chasing does like crazy on Nov. 15 & 16. That also was the best day the customers had.

Rifle season began on Dec. 2 and it was the slowest day he ever had in gun season. Only one call from a customer who killed on opening day. Deer slowly trickled in through the season, but it was slow, until right at the end of gun season. He had 15 or 16 bucks brought in that were killed on the last day of the season, Dec. 14. That was 3 days before the full moon. Most of those hunters, had stories that included bucks out chasing does, even after receiving hunting pressure through the entire gun season.

This also matched up with what I observed on Dec. 12, a buck chasing a doe outside my office window. Interestingly, the spike in kills on Dec. 14 is exactly 28 days from the spike that occurred on Nov. 16. A co-worker's son killed a buck this same day, that was out grunting and chasing does.

So if most does were in heat around Nov. 16 and some didn’t get bred, they would come into heat again 28 days later, which would be around Dec. 14.

Also the bigger kill days occurred right before a full moon and not after. It would appear that what is considered ‘normal’ in deer activity around a full moon had nothing to do with it.

So, what do I do with that knowledge? Not much I suppose. But it did confirm that what I was seeing and observing in archery season was also being seen by many other hunters, hunting in the same basic area, but hunting a variety of habitats. Some on private farms, some on public land, and some in big tracts of timber.

I believe I could make a pretty compelling case this year that most of the does in my area were bred around Nov. 15-17. The information gained may be anecdotal, but when it is all compiled together, logical patterns can be seen and rational assumptions can be made.

I'm not the best english and grammar person, but I believe you misused the word ‘allot’ twice in your post.

I always liked Danny the hunting equipment expert. He had a bunch of helpful insights into gear and hands on experience with all sorts of stuff.

What ever happended to that guy?:tu:

59.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13707]...I'm not the best english and grammar person, but I believe you misused the word ‘allot’ twice in your post....

[/QUOTE]


Uh, oh, Bob...You poked the bear...:grin:

60.) Ventilator - 12/18/2013

well, as i mentioned in my earlier posts, Dec 13 was THE day over the last 3 weeks for daytime deer activity on my trail cameras. Its worth noting, I only had two cameras out on the 2200 acre property. They captured 4 bucks and 7 does throughout the day on Friday. Also, with my stand observations, 5 does and 1 buck could be added to that total . I didnt see a glimpse of a deer sat or sunday.

61.) bluecat - 12/18/2013

Paper or plastic?

62.) Bob Peck - 12/18/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13707]I'm not the best english and grammar person, but I believe you misused the word ‘allot’ twice in your post.[/QUOTE]

Oh so close. There's no way to for you to know this but I actually misspelled the word 'allot'. This common spelling error began because there does exist in English a word spelled “allot” which is a transitive verb meaning to apportion or grant. I didn't intend that.

The correct form, with “a” and “lot” separated by a space is perhaps not often encountered in print because formal writers (I'm not one of them) usually use other expressions such as "a whole mess", "a bunch" or a "$hitload". This is what I intended. My apologies.

Not to nitpick but you should have capitalized the "e" in English. Hey, it's the OCD in me. I can't help it.

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;13707]I always liked Danny the hunting equipment expert. He had a bunch of helpful insights into gear and hands on experience with all sorts of stuff. What ever happended to that guy?:tu:[/QUOTE]

He's dead.

63.) Bob Peck - 12/18/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13701]Bob, this is really a distinction without a difference. If it's a good thing to have more pieces to the puzzle in the one case, it's a good thing to have more pieces in the other. [/QUOTE]

Naturally I disagree. I may not have expertly crafted the distinction but there certainly is one.

If the funnel is full of anecdotal data it is of little value (notice I didn't say NO value) in that anecdotes are not empirical data and therefore cannot be proven as true. Anecdotes are stories and observations conveyed through the filter of the observer and widely open to interpretation by the observer. Anecdotes, like any story that are told & shared multiple times change with each retelling.

If, however, the funnel is a blended combination of anecdotes, facts and first hand experiences, the wisdom to put the pieces together etc the volume of blended pieces combined with the content make the pieces to this puzzle a better foundation.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;13701]Now, what you are able to DO with those pieces is a another story [/QUOTE]

Agreed. What you do with those pieces demonstrates wisdom (or not).

64.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2013

Geez, Bob. Way to kill the buzz. I'd ask if it was a beer truck accident but I fear that might be painfully close to the truth.

On a happier note (for you) I don't think you've left Luv2 much to chew on in that post for tomorrow, except some punctuation which I bet he doesn't notice.

As for the rest of us, we're wondering if you can score us some of that applejack you're drinking. :wink

65.) Bob Peck - 12/18/2013

Please tell me we've beat this one to death. :dh:

66.) Swamp Fox - 12/18/2013

....

67.) Go Bucks - 12/19/2013

I am so confused.... Knowledge... wisdom... experience...

how does any of this apply to the endless debate of beer, whiskey, or scotch?

68.) DParker - 12/19/2013

[QUOTE=Go Bucks;13770]I am so confused.... Knowledge... wisdom... experience...

how does any of this apply to the endless debate of beer, whiskey, or scotch?[/QUOTE]

1) Whiskey
2) Mary Anne
3) 9mm
4) No beans

There...all of the great debates, settled.

69.) billy b - 12/19/2013

I know two people who are wearing out spell check:wink

70.) Jon - 12/19/2013

A guy who used to come into my shop shot a deer with a mechanical broadhead that didn't open. All mechanical broadheads are useless.

71.) bluecat - 12/19/2013

Pumps or flats?

72.) Ventilator - 12/19/2013

[QUOTE=Jon;13782]A guy who used to come into my shop shot a deer with a mechanical broadhead that didn't open. All mechanical broadheads are useless.[/QUOTE]

especially ones from NAP. :grin:

73.) Go Bucks - 12/19/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;13776]1) Whiskey
2) Mary Anne
3) 9mm
4) No beans

There...all of the great debates, settled.[/QUOTE]

Close
0) Ford
2A) Raquel... Farrah is a hag
2B) Marcia... the others sisters are scags