1.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

First, let me say I hope everyone is having some great hunts and catching a lot of fish out there...:wink


I have a question: WTH makes the NFL (especially) think you have to make a catch/fumble/incomplete pass so hard to determine?

When I played football (into high school) and during most of my career as a fan, you knew what all those things were. If you hit the ground and the ball came out, you'd screwed up. Unless my memory is faulty, you didn't have to just cross the plane of the goal line---you had to maintain control of the ball. If you caught a pass anywhere on the field, you had to "possess" the ball, not "make a football move" or do some other gobbledygook.

I'm having a hard time with three examples: Two in the Vikings-Lions game yesterday and one from a few weeks ago in some game I don't recall (it could have been college, but I rather think it was a TB Buccaneers game).

In that last example, the receiver along the sidelines clearly made "a football move" after the catch in that he turned and took at least one or two step upfield after the catch....and yet when he dropped the ball it was ruled an incomplete pass. That's from memory...I know there was no issue of a fumble.

In the Vikings game, Calvin Johnson had a ball shift in his grasp (not come loose) as his elbow hit the ground while diving across the goal line. He had crossed the plane of the goal prior, yet the touchdown was denied. Later, Reggie Bush had a touchdown credited after he crossed the plane but the ball was punched free of his possession (as he was in the air!) back into the field of play and recovered by the Vikings. I've seen so many touchdowns credited after all sorts of various sketchy ball control issues that I'm really scratching my head, especially after the Johnson denial.

Between football's new ball possession and hitting rules, I yell at the TV as much during football games as I do when the usual suspects from the Democratic party trot out onto the field....:wink


See the link below....Let me know if anyone has any resources on this stuff that I can look up.

[url]http://nfl.si.com/2013/09/08/calvin-johnson-still-doesnt-understand-the-calvin-johnson-rule-and-hes-not-alone/[/url]

2.) DParker - 09/09/2013

{Rosanne Rosannadanna}

You ask a lot of questions for someone from N. Carolina.

{/Rosanne Rosannadanna}

3.) DParker - 09/09/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;10508]In that last example, the receiver along the sidelines clearly made "a football move" after the catch in that he turned and took at least one or two step upfield after the catch....and yet when he dropped the ball it was ruled an incomplete pass. That's from memory...I know there was no issue of a fumble.[/quote]

Did he have control of the ball before he dropped it?

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;10508]In the Vikings game, Calvin Johnson had a ball shift in his grasp (not come loose) as his elbow hit the ground while diving across the goal line. He had crossed the plane of the goal prior, yet the touchdown was denied.[/quote]

This one's a mystery, unless he also didn't have control of the ball before hitting the ground.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;10508]Later, Reggie Bush had a touchdown credited after he crossed the plane but the ball was punched free of his possession (as he was in the air!) back into the field of play and recovered by the Vikings. I've seen so many touchdowns credited after all sorts of various sketchy ball control issues that I'm really scratching my head, especially after the Johnson denial.[/quote]

And the question is still...did he have control of the ball before it was punched loose?

It's all about establishing possession before something else happens.

4.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

LOL...


I just don't understand why a fumble is not a fumble and possession is not possession.

All this "The ground can't cause a fumble" and "Well, it depends if he was contacted or not" is a bunch of hooey.

5.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;10510]Did he have control of the ball before he dropped it?

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Yes, by virtue of the fact that he had the ball with enough time to make "a football move" among other things. [/COLOR]




This one's a mystery, unless he also didn't have control of the ball before hitting the ground.

[COLOR="#FF0000"] He had complete control. It's even hard to see if he loses any when his elbow hits the ground. I'm thinking this one hinges on whether or not the official thinks he was going to the ground on his own vs. because of contact. See the link. But these distinctions are complete BS. [/COLOR]



And the question is still...did he have control of the ball before it was punched loose?

[COLOR="#FF0000"]He absolutely had control of the ball before he didn't. He crossed the plane. I just want to know if possession is enough or not...or crossing the plane...or control....or if it's all voodoo...[/COLOR]

It's all about establishing possession before something else happens.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="#FF0000"]That's what I'm sayin! :tap::wink[/COLOR]

6.) bluecat - 09/09/2013

At this point, what difference does it make?

7.) DParker - 09/09/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;10512][COLOR="#FF0000"]Yes, by virtue of the fact that he had the ball with enough time to make "a football move" among other things.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Well, "had" the ball doesn't necessarily mean "had control of" the ball. You can take a lot of running steps while bobbling a ball and never really having control of it. This happens all the time.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;10512][COLOR="#FF0000"]He had complete control. It's even hard to see if he loses any when his elbow hits the ground. I'm thinking this one hinges on whether or not the official thinks he was going to the ground on his own vs. because of contact. See the link. But these distinctions are complete BS.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

OK, I failed to read the link for that one before responding...my bad. I agree with you. That all sounds like it was written by Hank Johnson and Nancy Pelosi on a 3-day bender.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;10512][COLOR="#FF0000"]He absolutely had control of the ball before he didn't. He crossed the plane. I just want to know if possession is enough or not...or crossing the plane...or control....or if it's all voodoo...[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

OK, so that one sounds like a normal had-control-as-it-passed-the-GL-plane-so-it's-a-TD call that makes perfect sense, because this goofy-assed "Calvin Johnson Rule" didn't apply.

8.) Hunter - 09/09/2013

It's all in the eye of the beholder (the ref!)

9.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;10515]Well, "had" the ball doesn't necessarily mean "had control of" the ball. You can take a lot of running steps while bobbling a ball and never really having control of it. This happens all the time.

[/QUOTE]

Believe me, he had control of the ball. Catch, tuck, turn, take several steps upfield...drop (with some help from the defender)...incomplete pass.

Complete nonsense, IMO.. Not even close to an incomplete. The commentators didn't bat an eye at the call. And no challenge from the sidelines. Maybe everyone was slacking off because it was pre-season, but...

A complete mystery to me.

10.) DParker - 09/09/2013

Well then that just sounds like a thoroughly blown call rather than a screwy rule. I've seen a few like that where no one in the booth seemed to be paying attention, and the people on the sidelines likely just lacked the visual perspective to be sure enough to issue a challenge.

11.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

Well, they spent enough time replaying it that if they'd thought something was screwy they could have said something.

Sometimes I think the commentators don't say anything because they defer to the refs too much and/or don't want to appear foolish if they're not thinking of some relevant tiny detail.

But this was either a blatantly bad call that they should have commented on, or some weird rules nuance that they should have explained.

For what these guys are getting paid to narrate football games....Man, give me a fraction...:tap:

12.) bluecat - 09/09/2013

3/25

13.) bluecat - 09/09/2013

It's a good thing it never happens in college ball.




If the Buffs hadn't gotten the 5th down, they don't play in the national championship game.

14.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

Is that Celsius or XM?

15.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

The late-hit call against Tampa Bay's Davis yesterday, which allowed the Jets to win over the Buccaneers, was ticky-tack, too, I thought.

16.) Pa bowhunter - 09/09/2013

All That being said, Dallas still sucks..:wave::grin::wave:

17.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

[QUOTE=bluecat;10524]It's a good thing it never happens in college ball.




If the Buffs hadn't gotten the 5th down, they don't play in the national championship game.[/QUOTE]

\
LOL


That video's a little confusing between what's being said and what's being shown...at least to my little pea brain. I don't think it shows the first spike/throw away... (???)




[I]On first down, Johnson spiked the ball to stop the clock. On second down, a power run into the line by Eric Bieniemy was stopped just short of the goal line. Colorado then called its third and final timeout. During the timeout, the officiating crew failed to flip the down marker to note that it was now third down. On the next play, with the down marker showing second down when it was really third down, the Buffaloes made the same call and Bieniemy was again stopped short of the end zone. Johnson then spiked the ball (thinking it was third down when it was really fourth) to stop the clock with two seconds left. He later claimed that he had no idea the officials had made a mistake, and believed he was spiking the ball on third down.[4] On the following play – fourth down according to the marker, but "fifth down" in reality – Johnson kept the ball himself and scored a touchdown.

Referee J. C. Louderback and the Big Eight officiating crew conferred for nearly 20 minutes to decide their course of action. During the delay, radio and television announcers noticed that Colorado had scored with the help of an additional play. Louderback was shown on the phone. After a lengthy consultation, the referees announced their decision: It was a touchdown, and Colorado would now have to run the extra-point conversion. Not wanting to take any risks with only a two-point lead, the Buffaloes snapped the ball and downed it to end a controversial 33-31 contest.[b][9]


Aftermath[edit source]

Colorado football coach Bill McCartney, a former Missouri Tigers player, did little to soothe the controversy. Asked whether he would consider forfeiting the game, McCartney declared that he had considered it but decided against it because "the field was lousy." He complained about the unusually slick Omniturf artificial turf surface, which he said had caused repeated slips and falls during the game.[8] It is alleged that Missouri purposely did not put sand on the field in order to make it slippery, and that their players, knowing this in advance, wore longer spikes on their shoes to compensate (Colorado did not know this and had to make do with shorter spikes).


The Big Eight...ruled that Colorado's 33–31 victory over Missouri would stand even though game officials allowed the Buffaloes a fifth down that produced the winning touchdown on the game's final play. Missouri's chancellor, Haskell Monroe Jr., had appealed to the Big Eight, asking that Missouri be declared the winner. "It has been determined that, in accordance with the football playing rules, the allowance of the fifth down to Colorado is not a post-game correctable error," Carl James, the Big Eight commissioner, said in a statement. "The final score in the Colorado-Missouri football game will remain as posted."[10]


---Wiki[/I]

18.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

No, it shows the first spike...But I'm still cornfused...LOL

19.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

Ah, OKAY....I see where the game callers went wrong...

20.) Floyd - 09/09/2013

Aint nobody gots time for this

SF the trouble maker.

21.) Swamp Fox - 09/09/2013

Okay, I guess I'll turn it over to the night shift and see if they can do any better....:p

22.) Floyd - 09/09/2013

It's a trick.

I can't believe Swampy is advocating arguing on HC.

HC must be too peaceful for his taste.

Remember what happen last time we tried something dynamic to entice membership and increase member traffic?

Who yanked SF's chain and got him all rowdy?

23.) Floyd - 09/09/2013

The very idea of Swampy stirring stuff up in the Shire-- sound the klaxon!!!!

24.) Ventilator - 09/10/2013

Well, At least Clemson is ranked #3 and on the rise! :hb:

25.) Hunter - 09/10/2013

Why isn't Swampy out hunting????
His season started a month ago!

26.) Swamp Fox - 09/10/2013

I've been out a few times. Not really feeling it just yet. I'm still in fishing/boat-rigging mode. Got some repair work to do thanks to otters or raccoons, and some thanks to Chinese or Washington-state quality control. Haven't figured out which. Also, my current Whizz-Bang electric forward propulsion system's mount-development invention project is on the slow track, but I at least think about it every day. Basically, I have to drill some holes in some starboard and treated 2x4 and bolt it together to see if it will hold up and the boat will handle, but that seems to be a bit much for me right now. Also fussing with a new fishfinder, which adds to the plate. Fishing in August was surprisingly okay, so that's something.

Hauled one boat out of the swamp and put a smaller one in, promptly rolled that one and took an unexpected dip in the flooded creek in the process. Good thing I didn't have my phone with me so I could text and surf the internet while I was in the woods, because it would have been toast. :wink The constant unusually high water this year has actually held up some of my scouting and prep work, but if it hadn't been that, it would have been the skeeters...

Fell in love with a beer wench at the Harris Teeter a few weeks ago. You know anyone who can get me to buy pumpkin beer probably has it goin on...Haven't been able to stalk her ....er... I mean run into her again since, though, but I have a back-up plan...Also, the prospects in the frozen food aisle have picked up considerably lately.

The same day I fell in the creek, I had the muffler fall off one of the Broncos out in the middle of nowhere near Camp Swampy. By an insane stroke of luck I had my tools from the other Bronco with me (it wasn't the one I usually take down there; this one usually doesn't have tools in it) and so I managed okay. Now she purrs like a panther, and since I don't have to get it inspected til next summer I'm prolly gonna let it slide til then. This has been a bad year for repair costs and unexpected surprises.

Probably gonna have to run the feeders this year since it was too wet for soybeans on me, according to my landowner's farmer. I'm not sure I believe that, since plenty of other people got their beans in, including on my club. The other farmer cut his corn really early, so that's that. I'm scouting acorn trees and hunting grape and berry patches. So much for not having to hang new stands in the summer, LOL. I think this coming weekend is gonna involve putting a couple of feeders together and running around trying to find shelled corn at a reasonable price. Also have to see if I can locate any Brooks oats this year, since that's a challenge for some reason, even though it's a local variety. Planting day is Oct.1.

Scrapped one blog system before it ever got off the ground and am gonna give it a go with something I hope is a little administrator-friendly, LOL. Got in over my head there. Who saw [I]that [/I]coming? :wink So that might mean if I don't get busy hunting and can put down the fishing rod for a while, I might be able to do a little work on that. What are the chances??

So, anyway, that's some of what I'm up to....Sorry you asked? :wink

27.) Floyd - 09/10/2013

I read the first and last sentence in your response to bluecat's question.
"I've been out a few times. What are the chances??"

Whew....did I miss any thing?

28.) Swamp Fox - 09/10/2013

Well. obviously you missed all the good stuff...:tap: