1.) toxophilite - 08/13/2013

[ATTACH=CONFIG]201[/ATTACH] it took a lot of years to put this board together, the oldest jaws go back to 1957 when my dad started to collect them for this project and I finished it quite a few years later, I first learned to age deer in the 1960s from PAUL Kelsey, the head game biologist in New York at the time and a legend in the field of whitetail research

2.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

What are the things I should be noticing toxo? The wear on teeth? Number of teeth?

3.) Triton Rich - 08/13/2013

[B]I think I'm gonna need some higher power binoculars![/B]:grin:

4.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

LOL, Rich...

[QUOTE=bluecat;9335]What are the things I should be noticing toxo? The wear on teeth? Number of teeth?[/QUOTE]

BC, check your eyeglass prescription or the settings on your monitor. The age is printed right on the jawbone.

5.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

Ageing older deer gets tougher. Judging the amount of wear can be tricky. I shot a doe long while back and we figured her to be around 7 1/2yrs old. She weighed 154lbs, on a scale not guessing, and the wear on her molars was unbelievable. The 11ptr that many of you have seen in my avatar or regular picks we aged at 3 1/2. He weighed 240lbs.

Toxo and I have been ageing deer ever since I can remember. Here's an example.

You can see that this tooth just came off in Toxo's fingers. If memory serves me this deer just turned 7 months. Correct me if I'm wrong Toxo.

6.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;9340]LOL, Rich...

BC, check your eyeglass prescription or the settings on your monitor. The age is printed right on the jawbone.[/QUOTE]

Well I know that, but I'm trying to understand what is/are the variable(s) that changes over time.

7.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

Most of the deer I shoot don't have teeth yet.

8.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

Then you should see the milk teeth right in the front of the bottom jaw.

9.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

I thought those were gill rakers.

10.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

That's pretty cool Deerminator.

11.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=bluecat;9343]Well I know that, but I'm trying to understand what is/are the variable(s) that changes over time.[/QUOTE]

LOL...

Okay, I'm taking my ball and going home...

:wink

12.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

There' some really cool info you can get from ageing your deer. How old do you think some of the big scoreing bucks really are?
They might not be as old as you think.

13.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

Hey, this ain't my first rodeo.

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/11/rodeo-clown-obama-mask/2641597/[/url]

14.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

:laugh:

15.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

I used to belong to a club in SC a while back and I think we were limited to 20 members. We hunted 5000 acres in several tracts. If we hunted one contiguous tract I think the info would have been more meaningful, but we took the jawbone of every deer we killed and sent them to a biologist at the end of the year. I don't remember being required to take weights, but some clubs do that. Anyhoo, those reports were the most helpful management reports I've been around so far because you are eliminating the maximum guesswork from your kill records.

I've not been in a ton of clubs but I've been in a few, and that one was the only one to take jawbones. It was also, not coincidentally, the one that was best-managed from a land-and deer perspective.

I could go on a rant about some other "management" efforts I've been involved in, but I think I'll save my powder. :re:

16.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

BTW, the Texas wildlife people have a good guide to jawbone aging if you're interested. I see it referenced on line all the time. There's also another one from USDA or someplace like that (I think) which I've seen, and it has a couple of extra tidbits of info.

17.) DParker - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;9353]BTW, the Texas wildlife people have a good guide to jawbone aging if you're interested. I see it referenced on line all the time.[/QUOTE]

Why, yes....yes they do (PDF document):

[URL="http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0755.pdf"]Texas Parks And Wildlife: A Guide to Age Determination of White-tailed Deer[/URL]

18.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

The Quality Deer Management Association usually---always?---has good info on issues of deer and land management, whitetail biology, etc. See link below.

I rounded this up especially because it makes the point that you may not have to mess with removing the jawbone to get your deer aged. (Removing the jawbone is not difficult, but it's a little extra time and mess and requires a jaw spreader and some loppers----which means I haven't messed with it in a long time.)

BTW...Don't remove the jawbone on a head you want to mount. Any decent taxidermist will save it for you if you ask him, and return YOUR buck's jawbone with YOUR deer.

If you don't trust him to do that, or if there's some other reason you don't want to remove the jawbone yourself, you can take a couple of good photos of the teeth and try to get r done that way. Here's how:


[url]http://www.qdma.com/articles/how-to-photograph-a-deer-jawbone-for-aging[/url]

19.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

OR, just slit the cheek and take a peek.

If it's not going to be a mount. If so then have the taxidermist save it.

20.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

Every deer I ever aged myself turned out to be six and a half years old...

Weird, huh?

:wink

21.) Ohbuckhunter - 08/13/2013

I really feel its hard to age a deer by its toofs. Every deer eats differently. Every area has different things for them to eat. If you went to a deer farm and looked at a 5 1/2 year old bucks teeth than looked at a 3 1/2 old wild deer they would be practically the same.

One of the does I shot last year got aged by a biologist at 9 1/2 years old. We got deep into what my thoughts was which he later agreed after showing him proof how old the deer actually was. Had very solid proof from trail cam pics that the deer was only 5.5 years old.

Late season ML I shot another doe. Took it to have it tested which I had no idea how old it was but had a decent guess. Older than the other doe. They told me it was 12.5 years old and the oldest doe ever taken n Ohio. I laughed and they asked to keep the jaw bone.

I am doing a Lil study on a deer that will get harvest at 4.5 years old. 2 more years. I will take pics of the jaw to show what it looks like.

22.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

I agree That's why some guides to tooth wear analysis just completely skip years 4.5 to 8.5 or thereabouts, LOL.

I think if you do it all the time you can probably get darn good at it, though. As the Texas guide and a few others point out, there are some fairly subtle things to look for in the mid years.

I do think you need to be comparing deer from the same area, though.

23.) Ohbuckhunter - 08/13/2013

This is a deer that's 6 months old

Here he is again at 1 1/2 years old

24.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

God should have put "born-on" dates on them. You know, like the beer.

25.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

Is woody browse harder than farm grain on a deer's teeth?

26.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

I imagine some farm grain is harder, if anything. But a deer that's browsing around in the dirt is gonna pick up all sorts of grit in its mouth and some soils are grittier than others.

27.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

I'm not sure that I've ever seen anybody put out a rule of thumb that woodland deer teeth wear faster than farmland deer teeth, or vice versa.

I think the big thing is to be comparing deer teeth from the same general area. Whether that's vital at 3.5-5.5 years when you're *mostly* still looking at enamel vs. dentine or whether it doesn't become important until after that--when you're really focusing on *wear*--- I don't know.

But I know I wouldn't bet the farm to age older deer within one year if they are from different parts of the country, just based on common sense.

28.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

I would think that they wouldn't chew the dirt and grit and gravel but spit it out.
Ya ever get a mouth full of sand, or dirt. EEEEYUK

Would nuts be that tough on wild deer teeth?

29.) luv2bowhunt - 08/13/2013

I totally agree with Ohbie on the touth wear. I'll bet pen raised deer would be mis-guessed at the check station every time.

I think nuts, like acorns, would wear down teeth on wild deer at a faster rate then greens would for sure. Acidity & tanins would come into play too me thinks.

30.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

I'll put a soybean up against an acorn any day.

Whenever I get grit in my mouth, it's already rubbed over my teeth before I spit it out. That's how I know it's grit. :-) And who knows if deer don't just "process" the grit, like a lot of animals do that we know of.

Since deer in most areas don't eat "just" woodland browse or "just" hard mast, or "just" ag browse or "just" farm grains, I think it's probably a lost cause to try to draw distinctions between woods deer and farm deer as far as toothwear goes.

31.) luv2bowhunt - 08/13/2013

I'll bet you could put pen deer against wild deer on tooth wear. I'll bet there is a difference with a controlled diet.

Besides, public land deer have to eat grit to survive. They get limestone grit here and you know what....they're thankful for it. They've never even smelled a single soybean in their lives, they pass up bait piles just to get to the grit.

Tough as nails, hell, they eat nails in the State Forest here.

32.) DParker - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=Deerminator;9376]I would think that they wouldn't chew the dirt and grit and gravel but spit it out.
Ya ever get a mouth full of sand, or dirt. EEEEYUK[/QUOTE]

I think it's nigh impossible to forage fallen acorns and other food sources that are in direct contact with the ground without picking up and grinding a fair amount of gritty soil particles with your teeth. You don't need a mouthful at any one time in order to produce a significant abrasive effect...just a tiny bit here and there over time.

33.) Swamp Fox - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;9382]I'll bet you could put pen deer against wild deer on tooth wear. I'll bet there is a difference with a controlled diet. [/QUOTE]


Second, and the motion passes.


[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;9382]Besides, public land deer have to eat grit to survive. They get limestone grit here and you know what....they're thankful for it. They've never even smelled a single soybean in their lives, they pass up bait piles just to get to the grit.

Tough as nails, hell, they eat nails in the State Forest here.[/QUOTE]


LOL :-)

34.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;9383]I think it's nigh impossible to forage fallen acorns and other food sources that are in direct contact with the ground without picking up and grinding a fair amount of gritty soil particles with your teeth. You don't need a mouthful at any one time in order to produce a significant abrasive effect...just a tiny bit here and there over time.[/QUOTE]

Sure they get some but not like mouth fulls with lots of chewing and grinding. As the teeth were down they don't mesh together as well either so there's a lot more space between them. Gulp. Down the hatch. They chew there food but not like we do. So I don't think it would make a difference.

35.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;9382]I'll bet you could put pen deer against wild deer on tooth wear. I'll bet there is a difference with a controlled diet.[/QUOTE]

Sure if ya feed them oatmeal. Who hunts pen deer anyway. Or did you mean PA deer.

36.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;9379]I totally agree with Ohbie on the touth wear. I'll bet pen raised deer would be mis-guessed at the check station every time.

I think nuts, like acorns, would wear down teeth on wild deer at a faster rate then greens would for sure. Acidity & tanins would come into play too me thinks.[/QUOTE]

They eat the fruit not the shells. Ever see shell fragments in there poop?
The Acidity and tanins probably just changes the tooth color.

37.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

These deer I'm not so sure about;

38.) bluecat - 08/13/2013

Guess her age.

39.) luv2bowhunt - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=Deerminator;9399]They eat the fruit not the shells. Ever see shell fragments in there poop?[/QUOTE]

They have to crack through the shells to get to the fruit. Ever hear them crunching acorns open under your tree? Sounds hard on the teeth. I'm sure eating acorns wears them down faster than eating greens would or does.

40.) toxophilite - 08/13/2013

you can still get mr. Kelsey's deer ageing chart from the new York state DEC, in the first couple years you look for which teeth are there or not but after 2 1/2 you look for how much wear there is, get a good chart and practice on every deer you can :tu:

41.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=Deerminator;9341]Ageing older deer gets tougher. Judging the amount of wear can be tricky. I shot a doe long while back and we figured her to be around 7 1/2yrs old. She weighed 154lbs, on a scale not guessing, and the wear on her molars was unbelievable. The 11ptr that many of you have seen in my avatar or regular picks we aged at 3 1/2. He weighed 240lbs.

Toxo and I have been ageing deer ever since I can remember. Here's an example.

You can see that this tooth just came off in Toxo's fingers. If memory serves me this deer just turned 1yr 7 months.( I had to correct the age )



[/QUOTE]
......

42.) Deerminator - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;9405]They have to crack through the shells to get to the fruit. Ever hear them crunching acorns open under your tree? Sounds hard on the teeth. I'm sure eating acorns wears them down faster than eating greens would or does.[/QUOTE]

Yes I have, and cracking the nut open isn't like chewing the shells. I don't think there is a measurable point to it.

43.) DParker - 08/13/2013

[QUOTE=Deerminator;9400]These deer I'm not so sure about;

[/QUOTE]

Oddly enough, you never see beaks in deer poop either. :-)

44.) Deerminator - 08/14/2013

Or feathers

45.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

[QUOTE=Deerminator;9411]Yes I have, and cracking the nut open isn't like chewing the shells. I don't think there is a measurable point to it.[/QUOTE]

Hate to dwell on the acorn thing........but........this thread confirms what I've personally observed countless times with deer. I know I've seen them eat entire acorns routinely and can't say I remember them ever leaving the shells behind. I'm sure the shells get regurgitated up and rechewed later on, when they're chewing their cud. The pic in this thread shows whole acorns retreived from the stomach of a deer.

[url]http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46069[/url]

[COLOR="#A52A2A"]"There were twice as many acorns in there that had been chewed/broken into pieces. It was incredible, she easily had a couple hundred acorns in there."[/COLOR]That matches up with what I've always seen, they crunch them into large pieces and swallow them. I'm not sure I've ever seen deer leave acorn shells behind, squirrels yes, but I haven't noticed deer doing that. You can bet I'll be paying better attention this year, you've got my curiosity peeked on this subject.

46.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

I did find it funny reading through that thread that the guys were wondering why a deer would swallow an acorn whole.

They are forgetting that whitetails will commonly do that then chew up their food later on, laying in the security of their bedding areas. Very common sight to see deer laying down chewing their cud.

47.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

I'm no meteorologist, but if we've moved on to how deer digest food, this is a good detailed summary. If you want to look up other info, you're looking for stuff on "even-toed ungulates" or "artiodactyls." Foregut fermentation is another term for rumination, part of the process deer use to digest their food, so you could try those, as well as "ruminants" or "odd things they're talking about on the forum in August."

[url]http://www.afrc.uamont.edu/whited/WLF%203413%20pdf%20files/WLF%203413%20Feeding%20modes.pdf[/url]

48.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

[I]Deer and Deer Hunting[/I] or somebody like that did an article quite a few years ago on how many times per day deer move to feed. That would be a good one for someone to find and post a link to.

49.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

The 4 chambered stomach process is why Deerminator never sees shell fragments in their poop. Everything is broken down so well through the cycle.

50.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

What's that candy I'm thinking about?...Not Raisinettes, not MilkDuds, not Junior Mints...


:cf:

51.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

Mounds.
Baby Ruth.
Hershey's Kiss.
Almond Joy.
Milky Way.
3 Muskateers.
Skittles.
Malted milk balls.
Special Dark.

52.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

Maybe malted milk balls...nasty...If malted milk balls are what I think they are...I've had them...

Isn't there something squishy, though, like Milk Duds except with something weird in the middle?


And when we're done with that issue, what's the latest on fall deer dumps in clumps vs. pellets?...After most of the soft mast is gone, but before they're totally on woody browse...It used to be that the experts would say that early in the fall those could be left by buck or doe, but later they were more likely buck droppings. I'm not sure I believe that, but it's always in the back of my mind. I suppose a lot depends on what "later" means. I can find clumps in some areas later in the season whereas you never find clumps that time of year in other areas. I suspect it has more to do with what's being eaten vs. who's eating it.

53.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

The biology I read about the clumps, was it was a matter of how long it was in the digestive tract. So a slower metabolism (older deer??) would tend to clump up more than a faster one.

But who really no's................nah, that's your line, not gonna steal it.

54.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

I scout just about all year long and I see both kinds, all year long. So I am basically no help on this.:tu:

55.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

Huh! The slower metabolism thing is a new one on me. Thx.

56.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;9443][I]Deer and Deer Hunting[/I] or somebody like that did an article quite a few years ago on how many times per day deer move to feed. That would be a good one for someone to find and post a link to.[/QUOTE]

And/or there's some info out there, possibly in the same research I'm thinking about, that describes how many times per day a deer will defecate and on what kind of cycle. I believe the general idea was to tie scouting for deer droppings to the times and areas deer would move in...As in more dropppings so many hours after leaving a feeding area might be found here if the deer were doing such-and-such; this amount of droppings indicates a dedicated bedding area vs. a transition zone, etc.

57.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

That I believe. I do remember quite well, that Deer & Deer Hunting had a study from Ozoga on how many times a deer defacated per day. Average was 14 times a day.

So, where they are placed will certainly mean something about what they use that area for. Feeding areas are fairly easy to see this in the big woods. White oak flats will have piles of droppings all around starting next month.

Not sure I've ever seen a correlation between bedding areas and increased piles, although it certainly would make sense.

More study required.:-)

58.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

The reason this would be important to me, in terms of bedding areas anyway, is because my deer (big woods areas and thick woods areas as opposed to small, scattered relatively open woodlots close by agricultural fields) are likely to bed anywhere versus having a dedicated bedding area distinct from a transition zone or a feeding area.

This is not to say that a thick area won't always be a prime suspect as a bedding area, but to say that deer around here will not hesitate to bed anywhere they like, including where they feed and where you think you'll/want to walk in and out. :re::wink

I've often thought it would be nice to know for a fact (LOL) that "This is an area that doesn't look like a classic bedding area that deer are certainly bedding in a lot."

59.) Ohbuckhunter - 08/14/2013

Ever seen deer eat wood.

60.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

Not dead wood, but green twigs yes, and maybe the soft bark/skin of a sapling...Though with the sapling maybe it was marking it or going for an inner layer...Not gonna swear it was trying to eat the main part of a sapling.

61.) Ohbuckhunter - 08/14/2013

I have out some lucky buck out on top of a stump. The stump when I started this year was around 2 foot tall. Today it's less than a foot. I'm not sure if they will do it without minerals or not. Never put a camera on a stump without nothing on it. Haha

62.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

Oh, yeah, they'll definitely eat a stump down with salt, minerals or molasses or other attractant on it. The wood holds the attractant longer than just putting in the soil.

63.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

OK, back to big woods bedding areas. I've found terrain to be the key on that, or vegetation, or a combo of the 2.

Just off the top of the ridge, in cover, with the wind at their back, looking downhill, is the classic bedding area here.

Unfortunately, there is about 25% of the 43,000 acres I'm hunting that will qualify.:re:

64.) Swamp Fox - 08/14/2013

You're a lucky man with 10,000 acres of good land to hunt. :wink

I had one or two classic places like that that I could get to by walking the spine of the ridge...Quite a hike, but it put your scent blowing over them or rising with thermals once the sun got up...

An ice and wind storm laid a bunch of trees crossways all along the spine and made one place impassable...The other place I actually never got around to deer hunting at all...Just used it for listening for turkeys in the spring.

65.) luv2bowhunt - 08/14/2013

The Michaux State Forest is actually 85,000 acres but I only claim ownership of half of it. This place is much tougher hunting than any place I've bowhunted before. Can't put my finger on what makes it more difficult than other state land, other than the obvious, less deer density.

Luv those hard to get to bedding areas, especially in early Nov. I'm finding it hard to find reliable doe bedding areas the last couple of years.

Alas, the search continues.

66.) Deerminator - 08/15/2013

Luv2 you are correct. I have forgotten some of my deer knowledge.