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1.) DParker - 05/02/2013
...AND carry a snake bite kit in my pack when I head into the woods.
[url]http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/nature/post/hunter-saves-own-life-after-rattlesnake-bite/[/url]
There's a good lesson here about keeping a cool head and your wits about you when things like that happen.
[url]http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/nature/post/hunter-saves-own-life-after-rattlesnake-bite/[/url]
There's a good lesson here about keeping a cool head and your wits about you when things like that happen.
2.) bluecat - 05/02/2013
Great post! I always carry a first aid kit but I think I will be carrying at least the plunger now too.
Lots of places on the web to get it.
[url]http://survivalstore.com/r8s12ldb4.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=18283950120&utm_content=pla[/url]
Lots of places on the web to get it.
[url]http://survivalstore.com/r8s12ldb4.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=18283950120&utm_content=pla[/url]
3.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
When I was a kid, they told you to cut a snake bite and suck the venom out. Then came suction kits. The current advice is do not cut and do not suck. Most info I've seen over the years hasn't been favorable to suction kits, especially the old ones that I used to carrry. LOL
Maybe this is a super-duper suction kit. I haven't looked into it, though I saw this story yesterday.
I have some good snake bite info if someone wants me to dig it up and post it. Also, I'd recommend people interested in this type of thing to look for a Wilderness First Responder course in their area. They aren't cheap but the info is state of the art and beyond basic First Aid. With summer coming up, now is the time to get in on a course since professionals and scout groups tend to want to take these courses in the good weather, LOL.
Maybe this is a super-duper suction kit. I haven't looked into it, though I saw this story yesterday.
I have some good snake bite info if someone wants me to dig it up and post it. Also, I'd recommend people interested in this type of thing to look for a Wilderness First Responder course in their area. They aren't cheap but the info is state of the art and beyond basic First Aid. With summer coming up, now is the time to get in on a course since professionals and scout groups tend to want to take these courses in the good weather, LOL.
4.) Hunter - 05/02/2013
I'd be interested in your info, Swampy. I wouldn't think suction (without cutting) could make things any worse.
5.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
I'm sure it doesn't make things +much+ worse, Ted, although apparently this super-duper one from Sawyer is pretty powerful and meant to stay in place for quite a while. I read somewhere that there was (at least in someone's mind) theoretically the risk of this causing some additional tissue damage.
I used to carry a suction kit that I was always pretty skeptical of because it was just a little piece of rubber that I couldn't imagine creating enough suction to pick up dust from a sheet of paper, much less venom from tissue.
I'll go looking for some snake bite info now...Give me a few minutes to rifle through the old archives, LOL...
In the meantime, here is something I found re the Sawyer extractor this morning:
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124208165196508345.html[/url]
I used to carry a suction kit that I was always pretty skeptical of because it was just a little piece of rubber that I couldn't imagine creating enough suction to pick up dust from a sheet of paper, much less venom from tissue.
I'll go looking for some snake bite info now...Give me a few minutes to rifle through the old archives, LOL...
In the meantime, here is something I found re the Sawyer extractor this morning:
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124208165196508345.html[/url]
6.) DParker - 05/02/2013
It sounds like there's at least some controversy surrounding the topic, even among some "experts". I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night or anything, but I would imagine that the efficacy of [I]immediate[/I] suction would depend to a large degree on the depth to which the fangs penetrated, and the venom injected. And then there's the issue of damaging the tissue and causing necrosis.
I don't know. Maybe it is a bad idea. I guess I just hate the thought of being out there in the middle of nowhere and not doing [I]anything[/I] before getting my heartrate up by struggling to get back to my vehicle, or just laying there and waiting to croak because, even if I got cell service, it's going to take a practical eternity for anyone to find me and haul my fat behind out of there.
I don't know. Maybe it is a bad idea. I guess I just hate the thought of being out there in the middle of nowhere and not doing [I]anything[/I] before getting my heartrate up by struggling to get back to my vehicle, or just laying there and waiting to croak because, even if I got cell service, it's going to take a practical eternity for anyone to find me and haul my fat behind out of there.
7.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
Quickie answers from a good resource: Also, these guys are one of the more active providers of the Wilderness First Responder and other similar courses, if anyone's interested. Click on the "Courses" tab on the page I'm linking here...
[url]http://www.wildmed.com/blog/snakebite-treatment-methods/[/url]
And these two are good....The first one has some pretty pictures, and might appeal to HC's preppers:
[url]http://www.survivalobjective.com/snake_bite.htm[/url]
And this one is straight to the point:
[url]http://www.wildernessmanuals.com/manual_4/chpt_6/3.html[/url]
[url]http://www.wildmed.com/blog/snakebite-treatment-methods/[/url]
And these two are good....The first one has some pretty pictures, and might appeal to HC's preppers:
[url]http://www.survivalobjective.com/snake_bite.htm[/url]
And this one is straight to the point:
[url]http://www.wildernessmanuals.com/manual_4/chpt_6/3.html[/url]
8.) DParker - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;5652]Quickie answers from a good resource: Also, these guys are one of the more active providers of the Wilderness First Responder and other similar courses, if anyone's interested. Click on the "Courses" tab on the page I'm linking here...
[url]http://www.wildmed.com/blog/snakebite-treatment-methods/[/url]
And these two are good....The first one has some pretty pictures, and might appeal to HC's preppers:
[url]http://www.survivalobjective.com/snake_bite.htm[/url]
And this one is straight to the point:
[url]http://www.wildernessmanuals.com/manual_4/chpt_6/3.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Good links, all 3. I just read them and, in addition to what I've found as a result of my own searches, it seems like the only really consistently strong "don't do this" advice is specifically with regard to the practice of cutting and then applying suction (and the reasoning given for this advice makes perfect sense to me.) But when it comes to suction devices alone...at least strong ones like the Sawyer model...there appears to be a little more controversy, and the admonishments against it tend to be more of the probablistic "it [I]probably[/I] won't help [I]much[/I], and [I]might[/I] cause additional damage" flavor. The exception to this was the first link, which described suction devices in general as....
[INDENT]"Useless. A nice study done a few years ago demonstrated their lack of efficacy. Their reputation was based on hype and not science."[/INDENT]
Frankly, this wording strikes me as a bit hasty and simplistic, and is probably not a completely accurate description of the matter. It could be, but I'm always wary of such absolutely-phrased claims, especially when they are inconsistent with most others...at least with regard to the lack of probability qualifiers.
Interesting stuff, in any event.
[url]http://www.wildmed.com/blog/snakebite-treatment-methods/[/url]
And these two are good....The first one has some pretty pictures, and might appeal to HC's preppers:
[url]http://www.survivalobjective.com/snake_bite.htm[/url]
And this one is straight to the point:
[url]http://www.wildernessmanuals.com/manual_4/chpt_6/3.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Good links, all 3. I just read them and, in addition to what I've found as a result of my own searches, it seems like the only really consistently strong "don't do this" advice is specifically with regard to the practice of cutting and then applying suction (and the reasoning given for this advice makes perfect sense to me.) But when it comes to suction devices alone...at least strong ones like the Sawyer model...there appears to be a little more controversy, and the admonishments against it tend to be more of the probablistic "it [I]probably[/I] won't help [I]much[/I], and [I]might[/I] cause additional damage" flavor. The exception to this was the first link, which described suction devices in general as....
[INDENT]"Useless. A nice study done a few years ago demonstrated their lack of efficacy. Their reputation was based on hype and not science."[/INDENT]
Frankly, this wording strikes me as a bit hasty and simplistic, and is probably not a completely accurate description of the matter. It could be, but I'm always wary of such absolutely-phrased claims, especially when they are inconsistent with most others...at least with regard to the lack of probability qualifiers.
Interesting stuff, in any event.
9.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
I'm with you on all that. However, I think the case for the suction/extractor treatment would be a lot stronger if someone could dig up third-party information or an "expert" who will say it DOES work, rather than noting all the squishy stuff that doesn't prove it doesn't work, LOL...I feel a little like Donald Rumsfeld here:wink...So far--and I haven't spent tons of time on this---I am not aware of any expert/disinterested party who has gone so far as to say that they'd rely on suckage.
10.) DParker - 05/02/2013
Well, it's not a lot...and not scientific, to be sure...but the doc in the story I posted seems to think it made a difference. Then again, I've known more than one doctor to speculate when they shouldn't.
11.) Go Bucks - 05/02/2013
premise of the argument: the guy would have died without it. how many healthy people actually die from rattlesnake bites?
12.) DParker - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=Go Bucks;5668]premise of the argument: the guy would have died without it. how many healthy people actually die from rattlesnake bites?[/QUOTE]
I think a meaningful answer to that depends on controlling for a lot of variables. For instance, the age of the patient, the species of snake (and therefor the exact type of venom involved), the amount of venom that was injected, the delay between the bite and the onset of treatment with anti-venom, the patient's heart rate during that delay, etc, etc.
I think a meaningful answer to that depends on controlling for a lot of variables. For instance, the age of the patient, the species of snake (and therefor the exact type of venom involved), the amount of venom that was injected, the delay between the bite and the onset of treatment with anti-venom, the patient's heart rate during that delay, etc, etc.
13.) bluecat - 05/02/2013
Well at any rate, fiddling with the suction syringe may get me to the point where I've calmed down (if only thinking I'm helping myself).
Other than some constrictors, there really wasn't anything beside "get to a doctor" kind of action to take. And as DP mentioned, most of us hunt in some secluded places where it's not going to be an easy go, getting out (with or without help).
Suction (not by mouth) only makes sense to me. What harm could come of it? It seemed to save someone. I have to believe that it could possibly buy me some time.
Better out than in I always say :wink
Other than some constrictors, there really wasn't anything beside "get to a doctor" kind of action to take. And as DP mentioned, most of us hunt in some secluded places where it's not going to be an easy go, getting out (with or without help).
Suction (not by mouth) only makes sense to me. What harm could come of it? It seemed to save someone. I have to believe that it could possibly buy me some time.
Better out than in I always say :wink
14.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
DP---
Right. Points taken.
For all my skepticism, I also have to agree with your earlier point that doing something would almost certainly feel better than doing nothing, even if it's just that the few minutes taken to do "whatever" might slow your heart enough from beating out your chest.
Right. Points taken.
For all my skepticism, I also have to agree with your earlier point that doing something would almost certainly feel better than doing nothing, even if it's just that the few minutes taken to do "whatever" might slow your heart enough from beating out your chest.
15.) DParker - 05/02/2013
With all of this talk about snake bites and suction I have to go find someone who hasn't already heard that old joke that ends with one guy telling his snake-bit buddy...
"The doc says you're gonna' die."
"The doc says you're gonna' die."
16.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
BC---I see you had the same thought about calming down. LOL
That was a big snake, from the description and the bite mark, plus apparently a timber rattler, so nothing to fudge with...i.e. not a lil ol fuzzy copperhead, LOL...If you see the video, he got through a cordura boot (probably not a snake boot, but that's just from the quick shot) and who knows how much deeper. Just putting those holes in that boot is enough to make you sit up and pay attention.
The point from the doc is (apparently) "If you got a full dose you would have been dead..." leaves lot of room for discussion.
That was a big snake, from the description and the bite mark, plus apparently a timber rattler, so nothing to fudge with...i.e. not a lil ol fuzzy copperhead, LOL...If you see the video, he got through a cordura boot (probably not a snake boot, but that's just from the quick shot) and who knows how much deeper. Just putting those holes in that boot is enough to make you sit up and pay attention.
The point from the doc is (apparently) "If you got a full dose you would have been dead..." leaves lot of room for discussion.
17.) Go Bucks - 05/02/2013
the point is the article makes it sound like some big miracle he lived. my point is he was at minimal risk of dying... although he would certainly be in distress.
"Rattlesnakes carry venom that kill 5.5 people per year. Rattlesnake attacks are always defensive. Most rattlesnake related deaths are males between 17 and 27. Alcohol is usually involved which facilitates the venom. I picture a drunk kid on a camping trip trying to mess with the snake, then not seeking medical attention immediately." taken from [url]http://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/human-deaths-in-the-us-caused-by-animals/[/url]
and this from... [url]http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/771455-overview#showall[/url]
United States
Approximately 7,000-8,000 reptile bites are reported to the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) each year.[1, 2] However, this figure is probably conservative because of underreporting. Rattlesnakes cause the majority of all bites by identified venomous snakes in the United States.[3] Dry bite (ie, no clinical evidence of envenomation) occurs in between 10 and 50% of strikes.
International
An estimated 300,000-400,000 venomous snakebites occur per year. Although rattlesnakes are not found naturally outside of North America, Central America, and South America, they are imported into zoos, museums, and private collections in other regions of the world.
Mortality/Morbidity
Fewer than half a dozen deaths occur per year as a result of snakebite in the United States; most are caused by rattlesnake bites. Estimates of deaths each year from snakebite range from 30,000-110,000 worldwide. Up to 5 times as many individuals experience permanent morbidity.[4, 5]
US mortality with administration of antivenin is approximately 0.28%. Without antivenin being administered, mortality is approximately 2.6%.
"Rattlesnakes carry venom that kill 5.5 people per year. Rattlesnake attacks are always defensive. Most rattlesnake related deaths are males between 17 and 27. Alcohol is usually involved which facilitates the venom. I picture a drunk kid on a camping trip trying to mess with the snake, then not seeking medical attention immediately." taken from [url]http://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/human-deaths-in-the-us-caused-by-animals/[/url]
and this from... [url]http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/771455-overview#showall[/url]
United States
Approximately 7,000-8,000 reptile bites are reported to the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC) each year.[1, 2] However, this figure is probably conservative because of underreporting. Rattlesnakes cause the majority of all bites by identified venomous snakes in the United States.[3] Dry bite (ie, no clinical evidence of envenomation) occurs in between 10 and 50% of strikes.
International
An estimated 300,000-400,000 venomous snakebites occur per year. Although rattlesnakes are not found naturally outside of North America, Central America, and South America, they are imported into zoos, museums, and private collections in other regions of the world.
Mortality/Morbidity
Fewer than half a dozen deaths occur per year as a result of snakebite in the United States; most are caused by rattlesnake bites. Estimates of deaths each year from snakebite range from 30,000-110,000 worldwide. Up to 5 times as many individuals experience permanent morbidity.[4, 5]
US mortality with administration of antivenin is approximately 0.28%. Without antivenin being administered, mortality is approximately 2.6%.
18.) DParker - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;5671]I also have to agree with your earlier point that doing something would almost certainly feel better than doing nothing, even if it's just that the few minutes taken to do "whatever" might slow your heart enough from beating out your chest.[/QUOTE]
Which, if I'm being 100% honest with myself, is almost certainly at the heart of my attempt to find at least [I]some[/I] utility in the kit that I carry.
Which, if I'm being 100% honest with myself, is almost certainly at the heart of my attempt to find at least [I]some[/I] utility in the kit that I carry.
19.) DParker - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=Go Bucks;5676]the point is the article makes it sound like some big miracle he lived.[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah. Journalistic sensationalism is a given anymore, and I don't really pay any attention to it. I was speaking more to the facts (as few of them are actually known to us in this case) and the second-hand claim regarding the treating doctor's assessment, which I interpreted more as meaning that he was in real danger in this particular case, not that he's a walking miracle.
Well, yeah. Journalistic sensationalism is a given anymore, and I don't really pay any attention to it. I was speaking more to the facts (as few of them are actually known to us in this case) and the second-hand claim regarding the treating doctor's assessment, which I interpreted more as meaning that he was in real danger in this particular case, not that he's a walking miracle.
20.) bluecat - 05/02/2013
I'm not a doctor but...
Just because you don't normally die doesn't mean it's not worth the effort. People that have bites sometimes lose their mobility in the affected area. Would removing some of the venom help in this? I would almost say it would have to. But again it's just a guess.
Off of topic but related, I guess the little snakes are oftentimes worse as they haven't developed the ability to withhold their venom. When they bite, it all goes apparently.
Just because you don't normally die doesn't mean it's not worth the effort. People that have bites sometimes lose their mobility in the affected area. Would removing some of the venom help in this? I would almost say it would have to. But again it's just a guess.
Off of topic but related, I guess the little snakes are oftentimes worse as they haven't developed the ability to withhold their venom. When they bite, it all goes apparently.
21.) DParker - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=bluecat;5679]Off of topic but related, I guess the little snakes are oftentimes worse as they haven't developed the ability to withhold their venom. When they bite, it all goes apparently.[/QUOTE]
There's a joke to be had there too...but I'm constrained to keeping things PG-13. :wink
There's a joke to be had there too...but I'm constrained to keeping things PG-13. :wink
22.) bluecat - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=DParker;5680]There's a joke to be had there too...but I'm constrained to keeping things PG-13. :wink[/QUOTE]
Maybe after the kids get off to bed you will post for us.
Maybe after the kids get off to bed you will post for us.
23.) bluecat - 05/02/2013
I'll explain the naughty parts to Swampy.
24.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
LOL...
If I bite the dust in the woods or am found face-down floating in a boat somewhere, please don't say that I was killed by a two-foot copperhead...Make him at least four feet, or better yet make it a six-foot moccasin or rattler...
And nobody take my stuff!
If I bite the dust in the woods or am found face-down floating in a boat somewhere, please don't say that I was killed by a two-foot copperhead...Make him at least four feet, or better yet make it a six-foot moccasin or rattler...
And nobody take my stuff!
25.) DParker - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;5685]And nobody take my stuff![/QUOTE]
Dibs on the .270 WSM!!!
Dibs on the .270 WSM!!!
26.) DParker - 05/02/2013
While researching the subject a little more I found a wiki containing a {morbidly} amusing factoid. It lists known cases of fatal snake bites in the U.S., including the following two:
[QUOTE][table="width: 500, class: grid"]
[tr]
\t[td][/td]
\t[td][/td]
\t[td][/td]
\t[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
\t[td]Mack Ray Wolford, 39, male[/td]
\t[td]August 28, 1983[/td]
\t[td]Timber Rattlesnake[/td]
\t[td]Wolford was bitten on the arm by a timber rattlesnake during religious services at the Lord Jesus Temple in Mile Branch, near Iaeger, West Virginia. Wolford did not initially seek medical treatment. An ambulance was summoned eight hours after Wolford had been bitten, but he died during transport to Stevens Clinic in Welch, West Virginia.[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
\t[td]Mark Randall Wolford, 44, male[/td]
\t[td]May 28, 2012[/td]
\t[td]Timber Rattlesnake[/td]
\t[td]Wolford was bitten on the thigh while handling a timber rattlesnake as part of an outdoor religious service at Panther State Forest in McDowell County, West Virginia. Wolford did not initially seek medical treatment for his injury, but was taken to Bluefield Regional Medical Center when his condition began to deteriorate some eight hours later. Wolford was a pastor and often handled his pet snake during church services. Wolford's father, Mack Wolford, died in 1983 under similar circumstances.[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
[/QUOTE]
It looks like some families just can't take a hint.
[QUOTE][table="width: 500, class: grid"]
[tr]
\t[td][/td]
\t[td][/td]
\t[td][/td]
\t[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
\t[td]Mack Ray Wolford, 39, male[/td]
\t[td]August 28, 1983[/td]
\t[td]Timber Rattlesnake[/td]
\t[td]Wolford was bitten on the arm by a timber rattlesnake during religious services at the Lord Jesus Temple in Mile Branch, near Iaeger, West Virginia. Wolford did not initially seek medical treatment. An ambulance was summoned eight hours after Wolford had been bitten, but he died during transport to Stevens Clinic in Welch, West Virginia.[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
\t[td]Mark Randall Wolford, 44, male[/td]
\t[td]May 28, 2012[/td]
\t[td]Timber Rattlesnake[/td]
\t[td]Wolford was bitten on the thigh while handling a timber rattlesnake as part of an outdoor religious service at Panther State Forest in McDowell County, West Virginia. Wolford did not initially seek medical treatment for his injury, but was taken to Bluefield Regional Medical Center when his condition began to deteriorate some eight hours later. Wolford was a pastor and often handled his pet snake during church services. Wolford's father, Mack Wolford, died in 1983 under similar circumstances.[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
[/QUOTE]
It looks like some families just can't take a hint.
27.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
Eight hours seems to be around the time when the faith runs out, I guess.
28.) Swamp Fox - 05/02/2013
[QUOTE=DParker;5688]Dibs on the .270 WSM!!![/QUOTE]
LOL...:-)
LOL...:-)
29.) Hunter - 05/03/2013
Read through all the links this morning. Thanks for posting them guys. It sure makes it seem that any self-treatment is pretty useless.
30.) Go Bucks - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=DParker;5691]While researching the subject a little more I found a wiki containing a {morbidly} amusing factoid. It lists known cases of fatal snake bites in the U.S., including the following two:
It looks like some families just can't take a hint.[/QUOTE]
I saw a show on the use of vipers in ceremonies on Discovery or the History Channel. Very strange things by very strange people.
It looks like some families just can't take a hint.[/QUOTE]
I saw a show on the use of vipers in ceremonies on Discovery or the History Channel. Very strange things by very strange people.
31.) DParker - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=Hunter;5701]Read through all the links this morning. Thanks for posting them guys. It sure makes it seem that any self-treatment is pretty useless.[/QUOTE]
All the more reason that I'll keep wearing knee-high snake boots.
All the more reason that I'll keep wearing knee-high snake boots.
32.) bluecat - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;5693]Eight hours seems to be around the time when the faith runs out, I guess.[/QUOTE]
Now that is funny!
Now that is funny!
33.) bluecat - 05/03/2013
Then again, if life gives you lemons...
[URL=http://s990.photobucket.com/user/mx482/media/snakeskin_zps23a12ddc.jpg.html]
[/URL]
[URL=http://s990.photobucket.com/user/mx482/media/snakeskin_zps23a12ddc.jpg.html]
[/URL]34.) DParker - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=bluecat;5679]Off of topic but related, I guess the little snakes are oftentimes worse as they haven't developed the ability to withhold their venom. When they bite, it all goes apparently.[/QUOTE]
This actually raises an interesting (to me) question: Research has in fact shown that as most (or at least many...I don't have the exact results handy) venomous snakes mature they learn (or an instinct kicks in) to meter the amount of venom they release when striking prey. Obviously this behavior is advantageous in that it allows the snake to not waste more venom than is needed to subdue the prey, which leaves it some in reserve it can use to defend itself, and requires the use of less resource in regenerating back to full capacity. But I wonder if any research has been done to determine if this behavior also holds true when snakes are striking in self-defense? It would seem that in such cases it would be more advantageous for the snake to dump as much venom as possible into the target in order to incapacitate the threat in the quickest and most effective manner (as opposed to a prey item, where the snake can afford to wait a little for the toxins to do their job).
Something to look into if I get bored this weekend.
This actually raises an interesting (to me) question: Research has in fact shown that as most (or at least many...I don't have the exact results handy) venomous snakes mature they learn (or an instinct kicks in) to meter the amount of venom they release when striking prey. Obviously this behavior is advantageous in that it allows the snake to not waste more venom than is needed to subdue the prey, which leaves it some in reserve it can use to defend itself, and requires the use of less resource in regenerating back to full capacity. But I wonder if any research has been done to determine if this behavior also holds true when snakes are striking in self-defense? It would seem that in such cases it would be more advantageous for the snake to dump as much venom as possible into the target in order to incapacitate the threat in the quickest and most effective manner (as opposed to a prey item, where the snake can afford to wait a little for the toxins to do their job).
Something to look into if I get bored this weekend.
35.) Hunter - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=DParker;5718]This actually raises an interesting (to me) question: Research has in fact shown that as most (or at least many...I don't have the exact results handy) venomous snakes mature they learn (or an instinct kicks in) to meter the amount of venom they release when striking prey. Obviously this behavior is advantageous in that it allows the snake to not waste more venom than is needed to subdue the prey, which leaves it some in reserve it can use to defend itself, and requires the use of less resource in regenerating back to full capacity. But I wonder if any research has been done to determine if this behavior also holds true when snakes are striking in self-defense? It would seem that in such cases it would be more advantageous for the snake to dump as much venom as possible into the target in order to incapacitate the threat in the quickest and most effective manner (as opposed to a prey item, where the snake can afford to wait a little for the toxins to do their job).
Something to look into if I get bored this weekend.[/QUOTE]
DP, get back to us on that! In the meantime, I will continue to kill them all, young or old!
Something to look into if I get bored this weekend.[/QUOTE]
DP, get back to us on that! In the meantime, I will continue to kill them all, young or old!
36.) Swamp Fox - 05/03/2013
I went turkey hunting this morning in my rubber boots and tromped through what's normal around here but some people might think it was a little sketchy...All I could think of after being involved in this thread yesterday was "SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE"...and then of course my mind turned to Monty Python. spam, and Vikings...Just got back, so naturally I had to check this thread, LOL.
DP---Everything I've read about your topic sugggests that the experts think that a defensive strike is handled by the snake in the same way as its other strikes if it rations venom. That is, I'm not sure that anyone really knows which snakes ration under this or that circumstance and which ones go for the whole enchilada under the same circumstances (at least as far as North American snakes go; I know zero about other areas) but those that[I] are[/I] known to ration seem to ration regardless of what kind of strike it is.
Now, I could be wrong about that because that's just my impression from articles here and there over the years. However, I DO know (because I came across it recently) that a lot of weight is being given to the theory that copperhead bites are less serious (generally) than the bites of, say, moccasins and rattlers, because the copperhead DOES ration venom on defensive strikes, which it seems to be more liberal at doling out than other venomous snakes are.
That is, because copperheads seem to strike defensively routinely, whereas another snake might hold a defensive or strike pose without acting against the same provocation, they (copperheads) seem to be attuned to rationing venom on defensive strikes. The copperhead's thinking seems to be "The best defense is a good offense." :wink
For what it's worth, even though moccasins have a reputation for being aggressive, most I run across just do "The Pose". Therefore, I'd have to agree with anyone who says that the chances are higher that a copperhead will strike defensively as a routine matter when "another" venomous snake might count to 10.
DP---Everything I've read about your topic sugggests that the experts think that a defensive strike is handled by the snake in the same way as its other strikes if it rations venom. That is, I'm not sure that anyone really knows which snakes ration under this or that circumstance and which ones go for the whole enchilada under the same circumstances (at least as far as North American snakes go; I know zero about other areas) but those that[I] are[/I] known to ration seem to ration regardless of what kind of strike it is.
Now, I could be wrong about that because that's just my impression from articles here and there over the years. However, I DO know (because I came across it recently) that a lot of weight is being given to the theory that copperhead bites are less serious (generally) than the bites of, say, moccasins and rattlers, because the copperhead DOES ration venom on defensive strikes, which it seems to be more liberal at doling out than other venomous snakes are.
That is, because copperheads seem to strike defensively routinely, whereas another snake might hold a defensive or strike pose without acting against the same provocation, they (copperheads) seem to be attuned to rationing venom on defensive strikes. The copperhead's thinking seems to be "The best defense is a good offense." :wink
For what it's worth, even though moccasins have a reputation for being aggressive, most I run across just do "The Pose". Therefore, I'd have to agree with anyone who says that the chances are higher that a copperhead will strike defensively as a routine matter when "another" venomous snake might count to 10.
37.) DParker - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=Hunter;5726]DP, get back to us on that! In the meantime, I will continue to kill them all, young or old![/QUOTE]
Aw, man...don't do that. The needless killing of snakes is actually one of my pet peeves. They're an essential part of nature's vermin-control mechanism, and we'd be a lot worse off without them in sufficient numbers to help keep rats and other disease-carrying pests in check. Sure, if one wanders into your yard/house and is a danger to you and your family (including pets) then you need to take care of that. But unless one is being overly aggressive toward you (highly unusual for most species, with the occasional exception...like water moccasins during breeding season) they really ought to just be left alone to do their thing.
I've encountered a lot of snakes in my time, and have only ever killed one...and that was a mercy killing (I'm pretty sure I've told the story before on BC)...and I even followed by "you kill it, you grill it" rule by taking it home and cooking it.
Aw, man...don't do that. The needless killing of snakes is actually one of my pet peeves. They're an essential part of nature's vermin-control mechanism, and we'd be a lot worse off without them in sufficient numbers to help keep rats and other disease-carrying pests in check. Sure, if one wanders into your yard/house and is a danger to you and your family (including pets) then you need to take care of that. But unless one is being overly aggressive toward you (highly unusual for most species, with the occasional exception...like water moccasins during breeding season) they really ought to just be left alone to do their thing.
I've encountered a lot of snakes in my time, and have only ever killed one...and that was a mercy killing (I'm pretty sure I've told the story before on BC)...and I even followed by "you kill it, you grill it" rule by taking it home and cooking it.
38.) DParker - 05/03/2013
[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;5731]For what it's worth, even though moccasins have a reputation for being aggressive, most I run across just do "The Pose". Therefore, I'd have to agree with anyone who says that the chances are higher that a copperhead will strike defensively as a routine matter when "another" venomous snake might count to 10.[/QUOTE]
I suspect that's generally true, based purely on anecdotal evidence...with the exception that I cited in my previous post with regard to moccasin (aka, "cottonmouth", aka "[I]Agkistrodon piscivorus[/I]") breeding season. Late last Spring my sister-in-law's husband took me and my son out on his bass boat for a day of fishing on Lake Lewisville. We spied a nice looking little cove that we decide to try out and. But shortly after pulling into it and and tossing out the anchor we quickly discovered it was a breeding ground for moccasins, and was just full of them. A couple of the juveniles (what I assume were males) were so aggressive that they kept approaching the boat and trying to get in it, keeping us swatting at them with the tips of our rods to fend them off. Needless to say we decided it wasn't the honey hole we thought it might be, weighed anchor and went looking for a different spot where we felt more like top predator again.
I suspect that's generally true, based purely on anecdotal evidence...with the exception that I cited in my previous post with regard to moccasin (aka, "cottonmouth", aka "[I]Agkistrodon piscivorus[/I]") breeding season. Late last Spring my sister-in-law's husband took me and my son out on his bass boat for a day of fishing on Lake Lewisville. We spied a nice looking little cove that we decide to try out and. But shortly after pulling into it and and tossing out the anchor we quickly discovered it was a breeding ground for moccasins, and was just full of them. A couple of the juveniles (what I assume were males) were so aggressive that they kept approaching the boat and trying to get in it, keeping us swatting at them with the tips of our rods to fend them off. Needless to say we decided it wasn't the honey hole we thought it might be, weighed anchor and went looking for a different spot where we felt more like top predator again.
39.) Swamp Fox - 05/03/2013
LOL..Oh, yeah, I've seen that too...I think they just want to cuddle, though. :-)