1.) Rushlight - 09/28/2016

Theoretical question: In Texas, legal buck has to have at least a 13" spread. What if you came across an obviously mature buck that had lots of mass but a tall rack rather than one that was 13" wide? Would the game warden give you a hard time if you harvested it?

2.) DParker - 09/28/2016

I don't think that anyone can accurately predict what a given game warden will/won't do. But killing a buck like you describe is a clear violation of TX hunting regulations and it would be a TPWD officer's job to cite you for it and seize the deer, so that's the result I would count on.

3.) Jon - 09/28/2016

I live in Delaware, we also have a spread limit for what we call a "quality buck" tag. The limit is 15" which they say is approximately the width of a deer's ears. In our hunting guide, the picture shows a deer's ears and the antlers about as wide. I've never heard of anyone being fined for shooting one smaller than the limit BUT as DP mentioned, there's no good prediction what any given game warden will/won't do.
Rules are rules and violating them makes you a poacher, in my world, a poacher is a serious POS.

4.) Swamp Fox - 09/28/2016

[I]"If it weren't for low standards, I'd have no standards at all."[/I]

I don't know who said that first, but I can't quite believe it's me. However, absent evidence to the contrary, I will accept credit after a respectable waiting period.

Width restrictions are probably the best age indicator that game departments are willing to use, and they seem pretty reliable in most areas. There are exceptions. If you do some googling you can come up with the studies that give a good rounded science-based picture of various ARs and their respective pros and cons.

Texas seems to feel differently about spikes than biologists who concentrate in other areas of the country do, but I've never come across any indication that her game department feels that width is not reliable for purposes of their management goals. Not saying it's the BEST way to measure age, just that it's workable for deer and people management.

On the other hand, I know some places where you'd be passing up older bucks if you insisted on width and would not shoot a very tall but narrow deer. Where I hunt in SC would be my best example, since I know it best. In my corner of NC, a rack will grow wider before it will grow notably tall. In my corner of SC, you have a lot of tall, narrow bucks running around, some young, but many old.

If Texas wants to set a 13-inch state minimum, that's not particularly aggressive. "To the ears" is a standard everybody should be able to live with, although there are always those who just can't be happy no matter what you do.

[I]"Ye shall know them by their griping."[/I]

I think that's in the Bible, or something...:wink

5.) Rushlight - 09/28/2016

Yeah, I probably didn't ask the question well. I have no intention of taking a buck with an illegal spread. I've just been looking at pics of harvested deer and noted that, while some were obvious trophies, their spread would not be legal in Texas. There's one that has incredible mass, but it basically just goes straight up like Don King's hair. That particular buck I'd simply like out of the gene pool.

6.) Swamp Fox - 09/28/2016

Here's some stuff that might be useful. :beer:



[I]Hunters of free-ranging whitetails cannot manage genetics through selective harvest and produce measurable genetic change. Period. Since we can’t control breeding in free-ranging deer, we can’t shape genetics. But put the deer in a pen and explicitly control who breeds who for several generations and, yes, results will be measurable, and they can be quite amazing. Because of this fact, many hunters assume the same can be done in the wild. Hunters are hard-headed (I know because I’m a hunter). But I am bound and determined to be there when the last deer hunter gives up on the idea that a trigger-pull can change the gene pool. To help speed that day, here’s a list of sound reasons why we can’t manage genetics in free-ranging whitetails.

[...]
[/I]

- See more at: [url]https://www.qdma.com/cant-manage-deer-genetics/#sthash.lBIpSdjl.dpuf[/url]



I've seen the Texas wildlife people say the same basic thing, though there is a reference to the spike issue I mentioned above in the article below:



[B]The Facts And Truth About Culling Bucks[/B]


[url]http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/deer-scouting/the-facts-and-truth-about-culling-bucks[/url]

7.) bluecat - 09/28/2016

[QUOTE=Rushlight;44384]That particular buck I'd simply like out of the gene pool.[/QUOTE]

If you're talking about Don King, yes, I would like him out of the gene pool.

8.) DParker - 09/28/2016

[QUOTE=Rushlight;44384]Yeah, I probably didn't ask the question well. [B][COLOR="#0066ff"]I have no intention of taking a buck with an illegal spread.[/COLOR][/B] I've just been looking at pics of harvested deer and noted that, while some were obvious trophies, their spread would not be legal in Texas. There's one that has incredible mass, but it basically just goes straight up like Don King's hair.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Rushlight;44384]That particular buck I'd simply like out of the gene pool.[/QUOTE]

How exactly would you do that, in light of the text in [B][COLOR="#0033ff"]blue[/COLOR][/B] above?

9.) billy b - 09/28/2016

I can tell you because one of the wardens at the Parks & Wildlife station on FM416 is a friend of mine and we have talked about this, if you harvest a deer such as you are talking about even if it is a trophy and it does not measure 13 inside at the widest point you will be given a citation, that being said , if you called P&W after finding out it does not meet legal measurements the fine is a lot lower since you notified them. The worst thing to do is try to slip it by, the fine for that can triple or quadruple what the original fine would have been. I have video of a mainframe 10 point on my feeder and for the life I can't make a decision if he's legal or not, he has good mass, great tines but not much spread, I'll try to find a pic to put on here, I think I'm gonna let him go if I have a shot at him unless I can tell more in person.

10.) Rushlight - 09/28/2016

[QUOTE=DParker;44390]How exactly would you do that, in light of the text in [B][COLOR="#0033ff"]blue[/COLOR][/B] above?[/QUOTE]

Well, the particular buck I'm thinking about is already dead, by another hunter, in another state, a couple of years ago, so I'm not going to do anything about him. :wink

If I did so happen to come across a scenario that I kept seeing a buck like this on a regular basis, I guess I would talk to the local game warden and ask what he thought. Barring that, I'd just let him walk.

I'm just making conversation. Most of the posts lately have been about women, beer, and football. I like football, but I'd like to talk about deer, too. :tu:

11.) billy b - 09/28/2016

Rushlight, this is the buck I posted about, I don't know if he'll go 13", I'll try to find a front view.

[URL=http://s218.photobucket.com/user/billybank/media/MFDC0647.jpg.html][/URL]

12.) Swamp Fox - 09/28/2016

Billy, that's a pretty buck. :tu:



[QUOTE=Rushlight;44396]... Most of the posts lately have been about women, beer, and football...[/QUOTE]



You say that like it's a bad thing....LOL

13.) Rushlight - 09/29/2016

Wow, billy, that's a pretty deer! I love those chocolate horns.

A couple of years ago I had a nice 8 walk in, but the longer I looked at him, the more I thought he was a hair short of 13". He didn't give me much time to think about it, so I let him walk. It also helped that I already had a doe in the freezer. :hb:

14.) billy b - 09/29/2016

Here is the 10 pt. from the front, he's behind the feeder, will he go 13" inside?


[URL=http://s218.photobucket.com/user/billybank/media/PICT0065.jpg.html][/URL]

15.) DParker - 09/29/2016

[QUOTE=billy b;44402]Here is the 10 pt. from the front, he's behind the feeder, will he go 13" inside?[/QUOTE]

I like that type of rack, but if I use the ears as my guide I'd say he's a little shy of 13" inside. And even if I'm wrong it's too close for me to risk it. The problem with tall racks like that is that they give the impression that the spread is even narrower than it actually is (just like vertical stripes and the slimming effect with clothes), making me even more apprehensive and prone to err on the conservative side.

16.) Jon - 09/29/2016

Billy, I'm betting he's 13" OUTSIDE......hows the Tx law written?
PS, my hunting club has a standard of at least 6pts and 15" outside spread. I got caught last year with a buck I shot who was under the limit and had to pay the $200 fine. It was a mistake actually, had 2 bucks sparring and they were spinning around for a while. I picked the wrong one after settling and had tunnel vision. Decent buck but too narrow.
[URL=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/jonnybow/media/buck%201023.jpg.html][/URL]

17.) DParker - 09/29/2016

[QUOTE=Jon;44405]Billy, I'm betting he's 13" OUTSIDE......hows the Tx law written?[/QUOTE]

13" or greater *inside* spread between main beams.

18.) Rushlight - 09/29/2016

Billy, if you hold a straight-edge up to the pic, it looks like he's just barely wide enough, but it's cutting it awfully close. It would probably be safer to pass him this year and hope he gains some width next year. It sure would be hard, though, with him standing there in front of you!

19.) billy b - 09/29/2016

I likely will not shoot him, I think he's 4 years old, considerably better than he was last year, also he has better mass this year, I wil try to video him after I get a close up eye to eye look at him, There is also a main frame 8 with a G2 kicker that he runs with, he might be 16" inside, If I shoot one of them it'll likely be him. I have a lot bigger deer on my W. Tx. ranch, that's where I'll hunt mostly.

20.) Rushlight - 09/29/2016

Thanks for the links, Swampy. Very interesting reading. :-)

21.) bluecat - 09/29/2016

[QUOTE=Rushlight;44396] Most of the posts lately have been about women, beer, and football. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;44400]
You say that like it's a bad thing....LOL[/QUOTE]

Well that's only because the floor tile and cooking threads had pretty much run their course.

22.) Hunter - 09/30/2016

Billy, it looks as green there as it is here. It's like a jungle out there! Hunting is going to be slow in the beginning. Rains this past week were incredible. Lots of flooding. Miles of fencing down everywhere

23.) billy b - 09/30/2016

It has dried up some here, these deer have been on the feeder for several months but it's almost time for hormones to show up & they'll mostly be gone till after the rut, as soon as it cools off I'm gonna hunt mostly in W Tx., we really have some good ones this year, hopefully I can find one of them.

24.) Hunter - 09/30/2016

Good luck!!

You and Jerry still want to come down this year?

25.) DParker - 09/30/2016

[QUOTE=Hunter;44441]Billy, it looks as green there as it is here. It's like a jungle out there![/QUOTE]

That's for sure. My Thermacell had better perform like a champ over the next few weeks or I'm going to become the poster child for Zika.