1.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

...to quote Fran Tarkenton at the 2016 Republican convention, quoting Vince Lombardi...

This didn't used to happen:

A few months ago, I started tripping the breaker on my outside outlet when I'd go to trickle-charge one vehicle in particular. (I don't remember if I've had any trouble with other vehicles.) This vehicle has a new Interstate 12V battery and I'm using a relatively new Minn Kota charger, all my extension cords are good, and I'm able to recharge my 12v trolling motor battery using the same gear and outlet no problem.

But as soon as I touch a terminal of this new battery when plugged in to this outside outlet, Ka-blooey!--- I trip the circuit.

As I said, I never had this problem before. It's only since I got the new battery, and even then I can't swear I haven't recharged it successfully in the past (I have a bad habit of accidentally leaving the ignition in the "on" position when I roll down windows on this truck in particular, when it's parked. Don't ask me why. No idiot bell, I guess. The point is that even though the battery is only four months old, I've probably had to charge it three or four times. The last two times have given me the problem.)

I haven't added anything to the outlet's load recently to explain this. In fact, I've taken everything off it that I could. Unless the bathroom lights and the fart fan are on, I'm not aware of anything on this circuit anymore since I noticed the problem and started unplugging stuff from the inside outlet that is on this circuit.

One weird side issue: I can get a pretty good jolt from the terminals when using the charger, even if its switch is in the "off " position. I've talked to Minn Kota about this when I noticed a small charge, but lately I can get quite a goosing. Think of the worst electric fence you've ever come across. As you can imagine, I haven't gone around checking to see if this happens when using other outlets. Minn Kota says there's always a small charge running through the device, and even though I've asked the question 17 different ways, they don't seem to be that shocked (pardon the pun) when I ask "Even with the switch off?" The jolt I can get these days is quite a bit more severe than what I was getting when I first ran this past them, for what it's worth.

But since I think my equipment is otherwise sound, and because I can use this outlet to charge other things successfully, I'm left wondering if there's something wrong with the battery. I do worry that my charger is not quite right, though, or that I have an intermittent short in the electrical system of the house. I haven't even thought about a problem with the truck's electrical system.

But the battery will charge successfully when put on a different outlet.

Any ideas?

2.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;43150]But as soon as I touch a terminal of this new battery when plugged in to this outside outlet, Ka-blooey!--- I trip the circuit.[/QUOTE]

What exactly do you mean by "I touch a terminal" of the battery? Which terminal? And what are you touching it with?

And what amperage is the outlet breaker rated at?

3.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

I mean if I touch a battery terminal or the clamping hardware around it with gator clip of the charger.

The breaker switch is marked 20.

4.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;43152]I mean if I touch a battery terminal or the clamping hardware around it with gator clip of the charger.

The breaker switch is marked 20.[/QUOTE]

The breaker trips when you contact only one terminal with a single lead from the charger? Well, a circuit is being completed/shorted somehow, so...I'll ask a really stupid question: Are you connecting to the ground terminal when the hot lead from the charger is somehow grounded?

5.) Jon - 08/17/2016

I think we have to approach this issue in steps, really small steps.
Firstly, there's an issue with your vehicle if just leaving the ignition in the "on" position draws down a 4 month old battery. For some reason, this doesn't surprise me one bit since you drive beat up old POS vehicles.......:wave:
Next, lets talk about the charger issue. If I'm understanding correctly, you can use this charger successfully on any outlet except the one? If true, I'm assuming this charger is good.
Then, lets look further into the problem outlet. As soon as you touch (either?) battery terminal (without the second one hooked up?) you get the breaker to trip? This indicates to me that the outlet is probably wired wrong, a direct short to ground somewhere in the circuit would cause this. Is this an outside outlet with GFI protection?

6.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Jon;43155]This indicates to me that the outlet is probably wired wrong[/QUOTE]

I'd think that too, except he says he doesn't have this problem when charging his trolling motor using the same outlet.

7.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=DParker;43153]The breaker trips when you contact only one terminal with a single lead from the charger? Well, a circuit is being completed/shorted somehow, so...I'll ask a really stupid question: Are you connecting to the ground terminal when the hot lead from the charger is somehow grounded?[/QUOTE]

I'd say no, but you can't trust me to follow electrical talk with any level of comprehension, so I'll just tell you in my own words what I'm doing, and then reply to Jon's comments about outlets and such separately.

Usually I tend to apply the positive clamp first, and then the negative directly to the negative terminal. I haven't developed the knack for grounding the negative to the vehicle frame, etc. My understanding is that's the better technique, but...

Show me the error of my ways if it's a big deal.

First, of course, I'm simply plugging the three-prong extension cord into the outlet, and then the two prong charger into the extension cord. Whether I have the charger On/Off switch in the "On" position or not, any contact of the positive clamp of the charger to the positive terminal of the battery will cause the circuit to break. I don't know if I've ever tripped the circuit with negative to negative contact first, but I could try it if it's going to tell me something. Let me know.

As I said, I have a lot of juice running through the charger even with the switch in the "Off" position, which wasn't the case a year or even six moths ago. As far as a defective charger switch goes, the switch operates the lights on and off just fine, but obviously it's not arresting juice going out the clamps, and in a greater amount than it used to.

8.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=DParker;43158]I'd think that too, except he says he doesn't have this problem when charging his trolling motor using the same outlet.[/QUOTE]


This is the thing. I'll bet I can charge the other two vehicles, too, but I can't remember if I've had to since I noticed this problem with the third.

Also, never had this problem charging anything until the new battery, which did get new connections at the time of purchase.

9.) Jon - 08/17/2016

OK, you did say that this same charger can be plugged into a different outlet and no problems? Or did I misunderstand that one?

10.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Jon;43155]I think we have to approach this issue in steps, really small steps.
Firstly, there's an issue with your vehicle if just leaving the ignition in the "on" position draws down a 4 month old battery. For some reason, this doesn't surprise me one bit since you drive beat up old POS vehicles.......:wave:
Next, lets talk about the charger issue. If I'm understanding correctly, you can use this charger successfully on any outlet except the one? If true, I'm assuming this charger is good.
Then, lets look further into the problem outlet. As soon as you touch (either?) battery terminal (without the second one hooked up?) you get the breaker to trip? This indicates to me that the outlet is probably wired wrong, a direct short to ground somewhere in the circuit would cause this. Is this an outside outlet with GFI protection?[/QUOTE]

I can use this charger on anything except this battery, as far as I know. I have not tried to charge this battery disconnected from the truck. But this problem never arose before the new battery.

You're correct that only a single contact with the battery will trip the circuit. The (presumably negative) other lead is either dangling or otherwise not grounded or connected to anything.

The outlet is a covered outside outlet, and not GFI. It has rarely ever tripped in the past, and I think I solved that problem by removing some plug-ins to an interior wall outlet on that circuit long ago. Nowadays if it trips, it's only the use of the charger that's tripping it. Everything else on that circuit is switched off, and the total of that stuff is an "empty" surge protector inside the house and bathroom light and fan, both off.

11.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Jon;43161]OK, you did say that this same charger can be plugged into a different outlet and no problems? Or did I misunderstand that one?[/QUOTE]

You're correct.

12.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;43159]As I said, I have a lot of juice running through the charger even with the switch in the "Off" position, which wasn't the case a year or even six moths ago. As far as a defective charger switch goes, the switch operates the lights on and off just fine, but obviously it's not arresting juice going out the clamps, and in a greater amount than it used to.[/QUOTE]

OK, this is what would bother me the most, for multiple reasons. It also means that we're dealing with multiple changes over time (the fact that the problem didn't exist before needing to charge the new battery, and the fact that the behavior of the switch on the charger has also changed, though I don't know how coincidental that change has been with regard to your charging of the new battery.) Switching off the charger should cut all current to the leads. If it isn't, it's defective. How "relatively new" is this charger?

13.) luv2bowhunt - 08/17/2016

OK first off. Is this one of these issues where you will get 6 or 7 pages of advice and free consultation services......and then do nothing except tell us you didn't do anything about it yet?

14.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;43167]OK first off. Is this one of these issues where you will get 6 or 7 pages of advice and free consultation services......and then do nothing except tell us you didn't do anything about it yet?[/QUOTE]

Free? I don't know about Jon, but I have an app for tracking billable hours...and I know how to use it.

15.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=luv2bowhunt;43167]OK first off. Is this one of these issues where you will get 6 or 7 pages of advice and free consultation services......and then do nothing except tell us you didn't do anything about it yet?[/QUOTE]

I should ignore this...but I can't. :wink


:ban:

16.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=DParker;43166]OK, this is what would bother me the most, for multiple reasons. It also means that we're dealing with multiple changes over time (the fact that the problem didn't exist before needing to charge the new battery, and the fact that the behavior of the switch on the charger has also changed, though I don't know how coincidental that change has been with regard to your charging of the new battery.) Switching off the charger should cut all current to the leads. If it isn't, it's defective. How "relatively new" is this charger?[/QUOTE]

I'd say three years old, perhaps four. Probably one year past whatever Minn Kota's warranty period is, because I looked into that last summer when I was having a problem with a certifiably bad battery. I noticed a small amount of juice coming from the leads at the same time.

I called Minn Kota, looking up the purchase date in the meantime. It turns out time flies whether you're having fun or not. The charger wasn't as old as I thought it was, and I considered turning it under warranty, which my admittedly worsening memory tells me was nearing expiration at the time. MK convinced me that my problem at that point was with my battery giving a false charged condition, and secondarily that a small amount of juice coming from the charger leads was normal, even with the switch in the off position.

17.) Jon - 08/17/2016

OK, might you have a different battery or better yet, a different battery in a vehicle that you can duplicate the same scenario?

18.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

I was thinking about disconnecting this battery from the truck, first. That would eliminate or indicate a problem with my truck's system, depending.

I do regularly charge my trolling motor battery on this same system (outlet, cords, charger) with no problem.

I can try a different vehicle later today if it's worthwhile.

19.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

And I just called Cabela's to look up the purchase date of the charger: I'm one month and two days past the three-year warranty period.

Woo-hoo!

20.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

Just got off the horn with Minn Kota. They had good notes on my conversation with them last summer, and are sending me a new charger while I box up the old one for return. The new one won't have any warranty on it, but I'll cross my fingers.

The person I talked to couldn't say whether a charge that could be felt at the leads with the switch Off was normal.

I guess I'll have to take a voltage meter to my batteries that I think this thing has been charging properly and see what it says.

21.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

So the remaining mystery is why charging this particular battery is causing a trip when other batteries don't.

22.) Jon - 08/17/2016

This might go right back to my first concern.......something in the electrical system in your truck is causing the battery to drain. This issue might also be causing the suspected charger issue.
Disconnect the battery from the truck and try again, if it doesn't pop the breaker, you have an electrical problem in your truck.

23.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Jon;43178]This might go right back to my first concern.......something in the electrical system in your truck is causing the battery to drain. This issue might also be causing the suspected charger issue.
Disconnect the battery from the truck and try again, if it doesn't pop the breaker, you have an electrical problem in your truck.[/QUOTE]

This makes sense to me. But then again, I drink.

24.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

LOL...

You boys caught the part where I have a bad habit of leaving the ignition in the "on" position when I go to roll down windows and such, right?


I always thought that was sufficient to run down a battery given several hours (or more) but I'm no stranger to slow system drains, either. Not in this vehicle that I can remember, though, and the last battery lasted about as long as it should have, but no longer.

I think what I'll do is try this charger on another battery or two before I return it to see if I continue to trip the breaker or not, and check all of them with my cheap little volt meter. Then I'll get this truck in the shop to check for a drain next time it needs scheduled maintenance, which is coming up anyhow.

I can't believe I've run this battery down so many times in four months, but then again, I can. :bang:

25.) DParker - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;43181]I can't believe I've run this battery down so many times in four months, but then again, I can. :bang:[/QUOTE]

I think the longer term solution to this problem is to find yourself a woman who will nag you about this kind of stuff. It's a sure cure.

26.) Jon - 08/17/2016

Your volt meter won't tell you much, it's going to tell you that the battery has 12.4VDC (+/-) when it's not being tasked. Now, if you are smarter than I've ever given you credit for and you actually know how to use the other functions on the volt meter, you can check resistance on your + terminal to ground and see if there's a short. It might not be a direct short, might be a high resistance short which is causing a slow drain. They are sometimes difficult to find. You might have to turn the key to the on position and then see if the resistance increases. If so, you'll have to troubleshoot the ignition system. More than likely, it's something simple like a cable that rubbed on something and has a small bit of cable touching metal causing the short. Might even be a miswired fog lamp or something you installed about the time you started eating batteries.
I always go back to "fingerprints" that either I caused or someone else who recently did work might have caused. Works on airplanes and vehicles.

27.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

I can follow the basics of it but have never done a diagnostic test of more than a couple of steps or without adult supervision. So I won't argue with your initial assessment of my intelligence, though I probably should just on principle. :wink

If I can play with the truck before my mechanic gets his hands on it to do it for me, I'll report back. I might have a chance to do something in the next few days.

28.) Swamp Fox - 08/17/2016

[QUOTE=DParker;43182]I think the longer term solution to this problem is to find yourself a woman who will nag you about this kind of stuff. It's a sure cure.[/QUOTE]


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