1.) crookedeye - 03/24/2013

do you really need to line that up? it seems like if i "cant" my bow a fuzz like shooting a RECURVE i can hold more steady and just seem to shoot better..i just "cant" it fuzz where the bubbles half out of the lines..
is the bubble needed for an average shooter? UP and down shots??

2.) Firemanj - 03/24/2013

If it is a good quality sight then the bubble should be accurate but you can make and adjustment to make it level out if you like it canted. Give me a second and I'll post you some good links

3.) Firemanj - 03/24/2013

[url]http://youtu.be/EUYuhOZTd34[/url]

4.) crookedeye - 03/24/2013

what is the purpose of it though?? long range shooting?

5.) Firemanj - 03/24/2013

Not necessarily long range but it definitely makes a difference at longer ranges but uphill and downhill shots are affected if its not level. Shoot at 20 then 40 and you'll see an impact difference if its not level.

6.) Old Crow - 03/24/2013

Hate to quote another forum .... but it seemed like one of the most detailed reviews of Sight Plane Alignment ....

[url]http://martinarchery.com/mtechforum/showthread.php?19705-Hamskea-Curing-your-3rd-Axis-of-Evil[/url]

You will see greater variation in your shot think of it in terms of arrow drop .....

So your arrow should always fall vertically .... so canting the bow cants the sight plane on an angle ... so if you shoot 20 yards with a specific cant you may not detect the error .... holding the same cant and shooting 50 yards your pin for this distance is greatly out of position in relation to arrow drop ..... left/right misses at distance will occur.

The first step is to assure your bow and sight bubble are aligned properly and then using it on the shot.....

you see it a lot shooting 3d as you may side hill targets and it id easy to skew your perspective of level throwing off your shot ... if your bubble is on and you trust it it will teach you to correct your level to be true with your trajectory.

7.) Swamp Fox - 03/24/2013

I have a couple of bows/outfits that want to cant and others that sit upright just as they should. Because cant can affect accuracy distance-to-distance and on sidehills as everyone's noted, I try to line up my level right after I anchor, assuming I'm thinking straight. It does make a difference.

One thing that helps that I am probably going to force myself to spend a little money on this year is an offset weight like the one from Dead Center. It can act as or with your stabilizer, and it really does help your bow handle better.

It beats fighting your bow to get it lined up properly to your stance.

8.) Firemanj - 03/24/2013

Switching to the vandetta enforcer really helped me. Being able to shift weights around and positions of the weight is definitely beneficial.

9.) Triton Rich - 03/24/2013

[B]If you aren't planning on shooting past 30 or so, it's not very important. You get out to 40 and it makes a bit of a difference. At 60, it'll make a very noticeable difference.[/B]

10.) crookedeye - 03/24/2013

so what are you saying??

11.) Old Crow - 03/24/2013

[QUOTE=crookedeye;3620]so what are you saying??[/QUOTE]

Don't make it a habit !!!! :wink

12.) crookedeye - 03/24/2013

so youre saying i shouldnt make a habit of it..?

13.) Triton Rich - 03/24/2013

[B]Of course I suppose you could shim the sight in such a way so the bubble is level when you have the bow at your particular cant. That or maybe you could rig up some kind of gimbal so the sight swings back and forth and then it wouldn't matter how much you canted the bow. Wait, I got it! You could put the riser in a vise and bend it so that you can hold it at an angle but the limbs will still be vertical, perfect! Awe hell, maybe you could just learn to hold the darn thing so the bubble's in the middle! :tu:[/B]

14.) Jon - 03/25/2013

[COLOR="#006400"]Rick, if you really do cant your bow every time you shoot it, you should get a 3rd axis sight and set it up with that cant built in.
Then the bubble will show you where it should be and the sight pins will be correct for how you sight it in. The important thing is to do the same thing every shot, that way you are consistent.
If you setup your sight to be level at the angle you hold the bow at the shot, the pins will be correct and you won't have any problems.[/COLOR]

15.) crookedeye - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Triton Rich;3650][B]Of course I suppose you could shim the sight in such a way so the bubble is level when you have the bow at your particular cant. That or maybe you could rig up some kind of gimbal so the sight swings back and forth and then it wouldn't matter how much you canted the bow. Wait, I got it! You could put the riser in a vise and bend it so that you can hold it at an angle but the limbs will still be vertical, perfect! Awe hell, maybe you could just learn to hold the darn thing so the bubble's in the middle! :tu:[/B][/QUOTE]

lol..i think i might get me a new stabilizer.. i'm not going to mess with it ..i think i'm going to get the bubble center as best as i can and shoot..and not worry about it..

16.) DParker - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Jon;3694][COLOR=#006400]Rick, if you really do cant your bow every time you shoot it, you should get a 3rd axis sight and set it up with that cant built in.
Then the bubble will show you where it should be and the sight pins will be correct for how you sight it in. The important thing is to do the same thing every shot, that way you are consistent.
If you setup your sight to be level at the angle you hold the bow at the shot, the pins will be correct and you won't have any problems.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

You know, this is the sort of stuff that really ought to be blindingly obvious to me, but for some reason wasn't until I read this thread. Now that you mention it, it seems like adjusting your sighting setup to match the way you most naturally and comfortably hold the bow (within limits, of course) is really the better way to go, rather than trying to force everthing into alignment with a line that's perpendicular to the ground, which is the conventional approach. Or am I getting the wrong lesson from all this?

17.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

No, I think that's right, especially since CE says he feels steadier in his hold using a little cant. So why not combine steadiness, confidence and a custom sight adjustment/setting? On sidehills I think you'd have to train yourself pretty good, though. A bubble really helps on sidehills.

For long-range rifle-shooting and click-range-adjustment scopes, though, the field bubbles that have become more common in the last few years seem to make sense. There's a time for everything..Even this less-exotic example: I remember when I discovered the Level-Level-Level for more precise scope mounting a bunch of years ago and then went looking for one to buy....Most gun shop clerks looked at me cockeyed when I asked, so I finally had to make an adjustment :wink and buy one off the internet. Now, you can find one pretty easily.

18.) DParker - 03/25/2013

So then what's really needed is a sight with a pin setup that is mounted inside a circular housing, with a weight at the bottom of the pin module and extremely low-friction ball bearings (or the functional equivalent) between it and the housing. This would allow the the pins to dynamically line up vertically regardless of minor variations in cant between shots, rather than requiring a manual adjustment to one particular cant angle. At least, that's my working hypothesis that I've thus far put a whole 5 minutes of thought into (which is my excuse for not yet seeing the obvious flaws in the idea).

19.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

I don't no...My head hurts already..

20.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;3729]So then what's really needed is a sight with a pin setup that is mounted inside a circular housing, with a weight at the bottom of the pin module and extremely low-friction ball bearings (or the functional equivalent) between it and the housing. This would allow the the pins to dynamically line up vertically regardless of minor variations in cant between shots, rather than requiring a manual adjustment to one particular cant angle. At least, that's my working hypothesis that I've thus far put a whole 5 minutes of thought into (which is my excuse for not yet seeing the obvious flaws in the idea).[/QUOTE]

What they really should do is take existing pendulum sight technology (the same thing as what you are describing, except on a vertical axis in a single plane, with no capability of moving toward or away from horizontal) and add what you are talking about. The thing would have so many hinges, fulcrums (fulcri?) and trebuchets (not even gonna try French plurals after yesterday) that it would probably be best explained by someone in the lighted nock industry, but I believe it would work.

21.) DParker - 03/25/2013

Right. While pendulum sights automatically adjusts for pitch (to use aviation terminology), what's needed is a mechanism that does the same thing for roll. Just for fun, I say take all of your proposed hinges and whatnot and toss in an internal gyroscope.

22.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

See, even though I'm with you on the roll, I never even thought of a gyroscope...

Brilliant!

23.) DParker - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;3748]See, even though I'm with you on the roll, I never even thought of a gyroscope...

Brilliant![/QUOTE]

If I learned nothing else from previous conversations it's that if you're going to make a solution to a simple problem complicated and expensive you need to go all-out and shoot for the moon.

24.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

I have much to learn in your dojo...

[url]http://www.kendo-guide.com/meaning_of_dojo.html[/url]

LOL

25.) Jon - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;3729]So then what's really needed is a sight with a pin setup that is mounted inside a circular housing, with a weight at the bottom of the pin module and extremely low-friction ball bearings (or the functional equivalent) between it and the housing. This would allow the the pins to dynamically line up vertically regardless of minor variations in cant between shots, rather than requiring a manual adjustment to one particular cant angle. At least, that's my working hypothesis that I've thus far put a whole 5 minutes of thought into (which is my excuse for not yet seeing the obvious flaws in the idea).[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#006400"]
Actually, this idea is incredible BUT it won't work.
Think about this, sight in your bow shooting it perfectly vertically using the bubble with a 4 pin setup where the pins are placed vertically and set for 20,30,40 and 50yds respectively. The 50yd pin will be the bottom one.
Now, cant the bow at 5 degrees left and shoot that 50yd pin. The POI will be right and low of where you held the pin because the pin moved left and low when you canted the bow.

Using your idea of having a sight ring on a set of low resistance bearings with a weighted bottom to make the bubble ALWAYS level would cause a slight problem with POI as well. Canting the bow while leaving the pins level (and not sighted in for the cant of the bow) would create a POI being low but not left/right as it would if the sight ring was fixed. So, you sight the bow in while the bow is canted and it will always be good but if you shoot with the bow level, it would cause POI problems.

Having a 3rd axis adjustable and watching the bubble is the only real solution I'm afraid.[/COLOR]

26.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

Now my head REALLY hurts...

Jon, when you say "canted left" do you mean top limb moves to the shooter's left or are you saying that the bottom pin (if it were fixed) swings left from the shooter's perspective?

Just trying to get my bearings here, LOL.

27.) Jon - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;3760]Now my head REALLY hurts...

Jon, when you say "canted left" do you mean top limb moves to the shooter's left or are you saying that the bottom pin (if it were fixed) swings left from the shooter's perspective?

Just trying to get my bearings here, LOL.[/QUOTE]


[COLOR="#006400"]If you tilt the bow towards your left shoulder, that would be canting left. Since the pins are attached to the riser of the bow, they also move to the left. Did I miss the question??[/COLOR]

28.) DParker - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Jon;3756][COLOR=#006400]Actually, this idea is incredible BUT it won't work.Think about this, sight in your bow shooting it perfectly vertically using the bubble with a 4 pin setup where the pins are placed vertically and set for 20,30,40 and 50yds respectively. The 50yd pin will be the bottom one.Now, cant the bow at 5 degrees left and shoot that 50yd pin. The POI will be right and low of where you held the pin because the pin moved left and low when you canted the bow.Using your idea of having a sight ring on a set of low resistance bearings with a weighted bottom to make the bubble ALWAYS level would cause a slight problem with POI as well. Canting the bow while leaving the pins level (and not sighted in for the cant of the bow) would create a POI being low but not left/right as it would if the sight ring was fixed. So, you sight the bow in while the bow is canted and it will always be good but if you shoot with the bow level, it would cause POI problems.Having a 3rd axis adjustable and watching the bubble is the only real solution I'm afraid.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

OK, I see what you're saying. I wasn't considering the fact that, with the bow canted (in either direction...it doesn't matter which as the problem is the same either way), the arrow and its ballistic arc no longer lie in the same plane as the one created by the verticle line passing through the sight and extending from your eye to the target. But I'm not ready to admit defeat yet, and look upon this problem as an irresistable opportunity to make the proposed solution even more pointlessly complicated and costly. :grin:

29.) Swamp Fox - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Jon;3766][COLOR="#006400"]If you tilt the bow towards your left shoulder, that would be canting left. Since the pins are attached to the riser of the bow, they also move to the left. Did I miss the question??[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Nope, you got it...I imagined the bottom pins swinging right but that is wrong...I've never been able to think in 3D...LOL...Thanks!

30.) DParker - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=Jon;3756][COLOR=#006400]Using your idea of having a sight ring on a set of low resistance bearings with a weighted bottom to make the bubble ALWAYS level would cause a slight problem with POI as well. Canting the bow while leaving the pins level (and not sighted in for the cant of the bow) would create a POI being low but not left/right as it would if the sight ring was fixed. So, you sight the bow in while the bow is canted and it will always be good but if you shoot with the bow level, it would cause POI problems.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Hmmmm...it seems that in my previous response I didn't read this part close enough to notice that it describes a second problem that is somewhat different from (although related to) the one that I acknowledged from your first paragraph. It's a poser, that's for sure. I'm going to head home now and think it over, on the theory that I'll arrive at a brilliant solution at some point during my 2nd bourbon. Or at least, it will [I]seem[/I] brilliant by then. Either way...

31.) Triton Rich - 03/25/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;3826]Hmmmm...it seems that in my previous response I didn't read this part close enough to notice that it describes a second problem that is somewhat different from (although related to) the one that I acknowledged from your first paragraph. It's a poser, that's for sure. I'm going to head home now and think it over, on the theory that I'll arrive at a brilliant solution at some point during my 2nd bourbon. Or at least, it will [I]seem[/I] brilliant by then. Either way...[/QUOTE]

[B]In that case, I better start drinking now so it'll make sense to me too! :ach:[/B]

32.) Jon - 03/25/2013

Worst case scenario, we get Dorge to over engineer a technical creation that costs 10x what it should to solve the problem.

33.) DParker - 03/26/2013

What do you think [i]I'm[/i] tryin' to do? I'm not sayin' that's where my inspiration came from, but...

34.) DParker - 03/26/2013

[QUOTE=Triton Rich;3827][B]In that case, I better start drinking now so it'll make sense to me too! :ach:[/B][/QUOTE]




It certainly wouldn't hurt.

35.) Triton Rich - 03/26/2013

[B]This is ridiculous. Now you SOBs have me sitting around the house obsessing over solutions to this so called "problem". Thanks alot! Need more beer![/B]

36.) DParker - 03/26/2013

Eureka! As anticipated, as I was finishing my 2nd drink the solution dawned on me. But I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow when I'm clear-headed enough to either...


a) Describe it inteilligibly, or



b) Realize how stupid it is and pretend that I can't remember what it was.

37.) DParker - 03/26/2013

OK, now that I've woken up and had coffee it looks like I'm going to have to go with option "b"...or at least the "Realize how stupid it is" part. On further examination of my idea I see that I solved one problem, but the two that Jon pointed out still remain. It seems that bourbon negatively impacts my ability to mentally manipulate solid objects in three dimensional space. Yeah...let's say that.

Back to the virtual drawing board.

38.) Swamp Fox - 03/26/2013

[QUOTE=DParker;3895]. It seems that bourbon negatively impacts my ability to mentally manipulate solid objects in three dimensional space. Yeah...let's say that.

[/QUOTE]


Join the club...:-)

39.) DParker - 03/26/2013

OK, I think I've got it now. As a practical solution it sucks, because it is complex, cumbersom and involves integrating the sight and a capture rest into a single unit (or possibly separate but compatible modules that can be connected together). But it IS a solution, and is interesting as a general engineering/problem-solving exercise if nothing else. Let's see if I can explain it clearly (I normally can't explain squat without a white board and at least 3 different colors of dry marker but, here goes...)

The crux of the problem, as Jon described two different manifestations of it, is keeping the sight pins in the same vertical plane as the arrow's ballistic trajectory when the bow is canted. In addition to this, any solution involves the sight armature rotating around the attachment point (to keep the pins above the arrow as it automatically adjusts for cant angle) suffers from the problem of keeping the pins the same distance from the arrow while it's on the rest, so as to maintain consistency regarding the range that each pin corresponds to. I think both of these issues could be addressed by a capture-type rest with a round housing incorporating a ball-bearing mechanism (similar to what I initially proposed for the sight pin housing) connected to an armature that extends above until it terminates in the sight pin housing (a normal, non-rotating one in this case). A shorter armature would extend below and terminate in a small counterweight. This would allow the outer part of the rest housing to rotate when the bow was canted, and do so in such a way that the sight remains in the same vertical plane as the arrow and it's ballistic arc, but also remains a fixed distance above the arrow on the rest.

The exact details of the ball-bearing (or whatever would work best) mechanism are beyond me at the moment, and it would also need to be "buffered" in some way that made it come to rest quickly after tilting the bow (you don't want the sight bobbing side-to-side while you try to line up a shot) while still allowing it to swivel relatively quickly as well. That might be a bit of a challenge.

OK. Destroy this one.

40.) Triton Rich - 03/26/2013

[B]As long as the bearing is ceramic and the armature is made of rhodium to serve no other purpose other than to artificially raise the price of the whole thing![/B]

41.) DParker - 03/26/2013

[QUOTE=Triton Rich;3941][B]As long as the bearing is ceramic and the armature is made of rhodium [COLOR=#ff0000]to serve no other purpose other than to artificially raise the price of the whole thing![/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

You make a compelling case, sir. I'm for it! :tu:

42.) Jon - 03/26/2013

Or, without dealing with the Korean engineer and ceramic ultra spec ball bearings, you could simply purchase a 3rd axis sight and adjust accordingly.

43.) DParker - 03/26/2013

Always with the negative waves. Stop trying to rain on the over-engineered-solution-to-a-simple-problem parade, man! :p

44.) Jon - 03/26/2013

Lol, please forgive. I'd also like to add that with whiskey on board, I do my best thinking but the next day realize that I don't necessarily make the best decisions!

45.) DParker - 03/26/2013

OK, so going back to my use of aviation terminology, it's my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) from everything I've heard/read is that the "3rd axis" of 3rd axis sights corresponds to the yaw axis (around which the bow rotates when you, for instance, grip too tightly and torque it)...which is why 3rd axis leveling needs to be done at full-draw. Correct? But what we're talking about with cant is the "2nd", or "roll" axis. Also correct? If so, what does a 3rd axis sight bring to the party when it comes to canting the bow at an angle?

46.) DParker - 03/26/2013

I should add that I do understand (or at least I think I do) how 3rd axis leveling is intended to prevent you from improperly canting the bow when shooting at a pronounced up/downward angle, due to the effect on the 2nd axis leveling bubble. But I'm not sure how it would deal with compensating for an intentional cant, even when shooting level.

47.) Jon - 03/27/2013

You are 100% correct about "3rd axis" being the yaw axis which is correction for the torquing of the bow. The reason I mentioned a "3rd axis" adjustable sight was due to the fact that any 3rd axis sight has adjustment for all axis'.
Sights are adjusted for your individual style of shooting, you HAVE TO be consistent in your shooting and do the same thing every shot for these sights to be accurate. If you always cant the bow and you adjust the rotational axis of your sight to compensate for that cant, the bubble will be level when you hold the bow canted. As long as you are consistent and peek at the bubble before the shot, you will have good results.

48.) DParker - 03/27/2013

OK, that all makes sense. Thanks. So then this whole exercise (on my part) is about devising something to allow some inconsistency in cant angle from shot-to-shot. Why? I'm not really certain. I suppose I just imagine that the degree of cant at which the bow feels most natural and comfortable might also vary based on factors like up/downward angle of the shot, standing on uneven ground, etc. Well, that and it was just a fun exercise in problem solving.

49.) Jon - 03/27/2013

Thats why archery aint easy! You have to be a machine

50.) crookedeye - 03/27/2013

thanks for all the useful answer..

51.) Triton Rich - 03/27/2013

[QUOTE=crookedeye;3994]thanks for all the useful answer..[/QUOTE]

[B]You're welcome! We're always here for you Buddy![/B]
:tu:

52.) DParker - 03/27/2013

[QUOTE=crookedeye;3994]thanks for all the useful answer..[/QUOTE]

C'mon...pony up some investment capital and we'll make this thing. It's overly-complicated, expensive and completely unnecessary. In short, everything that hunters love to buy. I already have a name picked out for it:

"The Always Right Sight"

Move over Duck Dynasty.

53.) Jon - 03/27/2013

[COLOR="#006400"]Put 7 pages of instruction with tolerance specs down to .00000003 and make it out of aircraft grade titanium and space grade silicon and we've got a deal. I'll pony up a few million of my retirement gladly as long as we get a Korean to spell everything correctly on the package and include a clean glass guarantee![/COLOR]