1.) Swamp Fox - 12/20/2015

Tell me what you think cerakote finish on a stainless barrel, action, and bottom metal on a rifle is worth/running in your area.

Put another way, if you had a stainless rifle, what would you consider your upper limit on cost for cerakoting?


Let's assume the rifle is above average in terms of accuracy, LOL...And to make it more interesting: Let's say you intend it to be your go anywhere, do anything rifle, not just a closet queen...

I'm happy to hear from fans of cerakote as well as detractors...:wink

2.) Swamp Fox - 12/20/2015

3.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

My first thought was why you would do that to a stainless barrel? What is the purpose of cerakote?

4.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

It's a protective finish, so it would be extra insurance to the stainless (which does stain, LOL) and it would change the appearance if you didn't like the look of stainless "in the white" if that's the proper term.

The first pic below is a pistol which had a stainless slide that was cerakoted to make the pistol one-tone, or at least I think that's the story. I didn't think that pistol came in a two-tone, but just use your imagination, LOL.



I just found out over the weekend that the smith I use has begun to offer cerakoting, so I thought I would treat you to these pics of guns he's done. I'll call him in the next couple of weeks for some prices and report back if anyone's interested,

George refinished a BL-22 for me many moons ago (metal and wood in a matte and satin) and it is just gorgeous. If there were anything more I could have done to the trigger, and if I hadn't had all the canoe accidents, and if I hadn't had an ACTUAL skwirl death ray (also at the bottom of a river now), I would shoot it at skwirls a lot more, LOL.

You can magnify and scroll around on the images below by going to the link and finding the pic...

[url]http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/gallery/?applicator_id=10013[/url]

5.) Jon - 12/21/2015

Here's my 1911 before and after cerakote. It's a very durable and sturdy and I'd recommend it from a reputable gunsmith.

6.) DParker - 12/21/2015

Good topic. There's a spot on my M&P's slide where the Melonite wore off (a defect in the application thereof on the early models) and I have to constantly work on it to prevent rust from getting a foothold. I could send the slide back to S&W and they'd recoat it for free, but I'd have to ship it and be without it for who knows how long. So I was thinking about having someone local Cerakote it...maybe even go the two-tone route just for grins. It certainly a good look on Jon's 1911.

I know Duracoat has a cheaper non-baked product you can apply yourself, but I would imagine that's not as tough and long-lasting as a baked-on finish.

7.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

Those finishes look really nice. I knew what cerakote was just wasn't sure why someone would do that on a stainless barrel.
I guess people do.

I would think you could take a gun that has some cosmetic wear on it and make it look like it came from show room floor.

8.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

I don't know how common it is to cerakote on top of stainless, but people do it. The question whether it's worth it or not gets answered differently depending on how likely you think the cerakote is to wear or chip. A simple "buffing out" of stainless that is hard-used is a lot easier than repairing cerakote, which apparently doesn't "patch" well (the whole part needs to be redone, from what I've read).

9.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Jon's pistol is a looker!

10.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=DParker;37417]Good topic. There's a spot on my M&P's slide where the Melonite wore off (a defect in the application thereof on the early models) and I have to constantly work on it to prevent rust from getting a foothold. I could send the slide back to S&W and they'd recoat it for free, but I'd have to ship it and be without it for who knows how long. So I was thinking about having someone local Cerakote it...maybe even go the two-tone route just for grins. It certainly a good look on Jon's 1911.

I know Duracoat has a cheaper non-baked product you can apply yourself, but I would imagine that's not as tough and long-lasting as a baked-on finish.[/QUOTE]



I thought the Mennonites were pacifists?

11.) DParker - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37421]I thought the Mennonites were pacifists?


[/QUOTE]

Shins AND a knee? Harlots.

12.) Wild Bob - 12/21/2015

I agree this is a good discussion topic. :tu:

I think you hit the nail on the head by indicating the anticipated use the firearm will see and where it will be used.

If I were just using the gun for general couple months a year hunting in the western region of the US; I probably wouldn't spend the money because in that climate with a little diligent effort it is not too hard to take good care of the firearm (especially if you are starting out with stainless steel to begin with). But if it were a service arm in constant use, then I probably would have it coated regardless of the region where I use it.

However if I were using it in a more hummid area of the country, like the deep south or the Pacific Northwest or AK...then yes I would consider coating.

13.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;37418]
I would think you could take a gun that has some cosmetic wear on it and make it look like it came from show room floor.[/QUOTE]

I saw a pitted, blue-rubbed-off revolver cylinder before and after yesterday, but can't locate it easily now. Pretty amazing transformation.

I figure you and a few of the other zombie killers around here will appreciate this one:

14.) Wild Bob - 12/21/2015

OH MY GOD! Put that thing away Swampy...It hurts my eyes!!! :tap:

15.) Wild Bob - 12/21/2015

Besides...it looks like a dam toy. :-)

16.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Wild Bob and I are thinking alike...Three posts and nothing to disagree with, LOL. He might want to see if his doctor has any openings after lunch. This could be an emergency! :wink

17.) Jon - 12/21/2015

Swamp donkey, if you do decide to cerakote any gun, be sure to check anything that moves after the process is done. the cerakote adds a thin layer of material and if not careful, it will impede movement if not done correctly. IE., my slide on the 1911 was slow due to extra material, I had to gently and lightly sand the groove where the frame and slide meet.

18.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Thanks for that tip. If I do anything in the near future (LOL) it looks right now like just a barrel and action, which I don't think they go "inside" for.

But I also have a beater single shot break action shotgun that I've thought for a long time about getting dipped, so that might be on the agenda as well, depending on cost. I can see where a coating could stiffen that up. I'll have to ask.


By the way, is that the bottom of the mag well or the butt plate of a magazine in your pic? I'm too lazy to zoom in now that it's on another page. It just jumped out at me. If a magazine, great call to cerakote it to match the slide! Looks REALLY nice. :tu:

19.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Well, now I don't know. Maybe the interior of an action (receiver especially) gets treated, but not the inside of the barrel. That would make some sense. I'll have to check.

20.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

I would think if the inside of the barrel gets treated, you've got problems.

21.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

LOL...

22.) Jon - 12/21/2015

Swamp thing, that's the bottom of the magwell that you see.
But, back to a prior conversation......... is this something you will ACTUALLY DO or just another dream that comes out of your ears to waste bandwidth?

23.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

It really depends on the cost. I can see doing it on a couple of things in my hands now, but they're not a high priority. I would be more likely to do it on a new purchase which may or may not be "necessary." Too early to tell at the moment. Just trying to get the lay of the land right now.

24.) Jon - 12/21/2015

How you coming on that AR build?

25.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

LOL...


Still on the wish list, but slipping in position fast...I just don't see much call for it any more.


But we can talk about a lot less fun stuff on my needs/wish list if everyone wants, if the criterion for bringing stuff up is what I'll get to soon...:shocked: LOL

26.) DParker - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37442]LOL...


Still on the wish list, but slipping in position fast...I just don't see much call for it any more.


But we can talk about a lot less fun stuff than my needs/wish list if everyone wants, if the criterion for bringing stuff up is what I'll get to soon...:shocked: LOL[/QUOTE]

If you're ever going to do it though, now would be the time. The market is saturated, so parts are plentiful and as cheap as I've ever seen them.

27.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Thanks for that heads-up, but I don't have the time or the budget to mess with it right now.


I've gotten bitten on the ass by a few things since that topic came up, some of which were completely unanticipated, LOL. (I try to factor in getting bitten on the ass most of the time, but a few things REALLY went sideways :bang:). And my priorities have changed, in addition.


The easiest and shortest and most Huntingcountry-relevant of the several explanations is that I was thinking of a very light AR to carry in addition to a bow and my other gear, for pest control purposes. I found my build targets to be borderline difficult...Not necessarily unrealistic, but requiring more of my concentration than I could give them. Then, that particular property I was hunting became less important to me in the big scheme of things, and other priorities for time and money took over.


So that's all I have to say about THAT! :wink

28.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37444]
I've gotten bitten on the ass by a few things since that topic came up, some of which were completely unanticipated, LOL.

[/QUOTE]

What's her name?

29.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

Just a general question about AR builds. Do people build their own AR's for customization purposes or do you save some money by doing it that way?

30.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

LOL...

I'm thinking if I say LaFawnduh, you all won't stop asking questions?



Am I right?


LOL

31.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;37445]What's her name?[/QUOTE]


LOL...

I'm thinking if I say LaFawnduh, you all won't stop asking questions?



Am I right?


LOL

32.) DParker - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;37446]Just a general question about AR builds. Do people build their own AR's for customization purposes or do you save some money by doing it that way?[/QUOTE]

Yes...I mean...no. I mean.....it depends.

If you build a plain AR using the same furniture and other components as used by off-the-shelf ARs then you're not going to save any money. In fact in most cases it will cost you more to do it that way. On the other hand, if you buy a plain-Jane pre-assembled AR with the intention of replacing some of the parts with upgrades (or just something you like better for whatever reason) then it's usually cheaper and easier to just build your own using the parts you want from the get-go...unless you want to hassle with selling the part(s) you replaced in order to recoup some of the cost of the newer parts.

On the other hand, more and more vendors have begun offering pre-assembled ARs using aftermarket furniture to begin with (mostly things like Magpul grips and fore ends, etc.)

33.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

I know I wasn't going to get off cheap building what I really wanted, LOL, without even figuring in my time.

I could have bought off-the-shelf and gotten a rifle I'll call an 80-percenter, but they basically told me to consult my Magic 8 Ball regarding delivery date, so I was all like this:

34.) DParker - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37450]I know I wasn't going to get off cheap building what I really wanted, LOL, without even figuring in my time.

I could have bought off-the-shelf and gotten a rifle I'll call an 80-percenter, but they basically told me to consult my Magic 8 Ball regarding delivery date[/QUOTE]

Yeah, those days are over with. That is...until the next credible push for a new federal AWB (with emphasis on "credible"...which won't happen unless/until the "D"s retake both houses of Congress.)

35.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

What components on the off-the shelf models are people generally want to swap out? Is there something in particular generally that the off-the-shelf models don't provide or is it just a lot of fun getting different components? I know that's not going to be easy to answer, but in general.

36.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

I don't know...I bet I could call Rock River tomorrow and they'd still tell me they have an indeterminate delivery date for what I'd plunk down money for (with the implication being that indeterminate also means "not any time soon.") It was a problem for them getting components a couple of years ago, when things re AWBs were relatively calm. I can't see the news over the last few weeks creating anything other than a worse scenario compared to then. :cf:


Or maybe parts inventories are okay at this exact moment, but how long is that going to last, given the current scare?

37.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Or, going in a slightly different direction with news since the last time I was shopping semi-seriously, I have been encouraged to look at this:

Haven't gone over it with a fine-tooth comb, but it's off to a good start. :wink


[url]http://sonsoflibertygunworks.com/products/the-swamp-fox-m4-sulml-ultra-light-6lb-rifle?variant=3084315905[/url]

38.) DParker - 12/21/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;37452]What components on the off-the shelf models are people generally want to swap out? Is there something in particular generally that the off-the-shelf models don't provide or is it just a lot of fun getting different components? I know that's not going to be easy to answer, but in general.[/QUOTE]

The most commonly replaced...and easiest to do yo'self...are things like the fore end, the grip, and the stock. These are commonly replaced with aftermarket versions that offer superior ergonomics and/or additional functionality (like storage compartments in some stocks and grips, the ability to add mil-spec rail sections to fore ends that accept them, etc.) Better trigger groups are also a popular upgrade (the stock trigger on most ARs isn't great), and is especially easy to do when building from a stripped lower receiver, since you don't have to remove the existing trigger first.

Adding sights to a flat-top that doesn't already have them is common too. There are other replacements that are often made, but these are the most common.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37453]I don't know...I bet I could call Rock River tomorrow and they'd still tell me they have an indeterminate delivery date for what I'd plunk down money for (with the implication being that indeterminate also means "not any time soon.") It was a problem for them getting components a couple of years ago, when things re AWBs were relatively calm. I can't see the news over the last few weeks creating anything other than a worse scenario compared to then. :cf:


Or maybe parts inventories are okay at this exact moment, but how long is that going to last, given the current scare?[/QUOTE]

Don't order from Rock River. Problem solved. Seriously, there are a bunch of quality vendors of complete ARs and components who are flush with inventory and selling at good prices right now.

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37454]Or, going in a slightly different direction with news since the last time I was shopping semi-seriously, I have been encouraged to look at this:

Haven't gone over it with a fine-tooth comb, but it's off to a good start. :wink


[url]http://sonsoflibertygunworks.com/products/the-swamp-fox-m4-sulml-ultra-light-6lb-rifle?variant=3084315905[/url][/QUOTE]

"UltraLight" @ 6 lbs? My son built a 4.5 lb (without a mag) AR for nearly $800 less than that. He used all Magpul furniture and sights and a RRA 2-stage trigger, but even with the Geissele trigger and Vltor stock it wouldn't have come close to $1,776.

39.) Swamp Fox - 12/21/2015

Yeah, but if you're going to buy a rifle from the Sons of Liberty, $1776 is a good price to remember....LOL

40.) bluecat - 12/21/2015

Good thing the declaration wasn't signed later, huh?

41.) Jon - 12/22/2015

I just picked up another stripped lower from my local gun guy, machined aluminum for $59. A LPK runs about $90 and putting it together is much more fun than buying one assembled. I'll wait on an upper simply because I'm not quite certain what this build will be yet. I've been throwing around the idea of doing a black and red build on something a little different, no 5.56 or .300BLK, this might be a 6.5, not sure yet.

42.) Wild Bob - 12/22/2015

Interesting topic! I know very little about ARs / what I call black guns...So thanks for posting you guys that are knowledgeable about these firearms.

One thing that I'd like to pitch out there - just to get some feed back from you guys that know about this stuff is the following:

I have a work acquaintance and we occasionally go shooting. One great thing about this is that we both bring firearms that each other owns and get to try them out if you will. So, he has a Sig Patrol 556 Rifle that I've gotten to shoot a number of times. Other than that rifle, the only other AR type of rifle I've shot was an older Armalite AR (and it was a while back so, so don't even ask me what model it was; I think it may have been a late model 18 - but I cannot remember for sure).

My question / comment is this: In my limited experience, what struck me about both (the older and newer rifle) was this - both triggers seemed very sloppy and junky to me...Now, I understand that these rifles are tools, and as such they are built a little differently than traditional sporting/hunting rifles (which is where all my experience lies). But, especially on that new Sig - if I spent that kind of money on one, I'd expect a tighter, smoother action trigger. So is that typical on all AR type rifles? Is re-working the trigger one of the typical after market improvements made on those rifles? Or is my experience so limited that I was just exposed to a couple of abnormal triggers?

43.) Wild Bob - 12/22/2015

Guess I should have read Parker's response a little closer...:re:

44.) Jon - 12/22/2015

Typically the first mod on a AR is to drop at least a decent 2 stage RRA LPK in it, a better upgrade would be a Giselle trigger. As you probably know, the sky is the limit with upgrades on these guns.

45.) DParker - 12/22/2015

Pretty much what Jon said. I'd only add that the difference between a stock AR trigger and the RRA NM 2-stage model is dramatic and well worth the cost (readily available for around $85-$95 if you get it stand-alone vs. part of a lower parts kit). While higher-end triggers like those from Geissele, et al are an improvement over that, they're also significantly more expensive (usually well more than 2x the cost of the RRA) and, unless your a very good shooter reaching out to hit bullseyes at ranges over 2-300 yds you'll probably never reap any real benefit from it (though Geissele also offers a more budget-friendly 2-stage trigger for around $150).

On the other hand, if you just want top-notch gear and don't mind throwing extra cash at that pursuit....then why not?

46.) Jon - 12/22/2015

I might add that a good friend of mine has the Sig patrol 5.56 and his trigger out of the box was horrible as most are. It felt like someone threw a handful of sand in there. It shot fine and as long as you aren't trying to make a mildly accurate rifle into a flea killer, it will serve the purpose well.

47.) bluecat - 12/22/2015

Don't companies realize (and this isn't just gun manufacturers) realize that their products are lacking in areas and try to improve those? For example, what's the first thing you generally do when you buy a 1,000 bow. You strip off the crappy strings and get good ones. Doesn't make sense to me as a consumer. Maybe it makes business sense. :cf:

48.) DParker - 12/22/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;37484]Don't companies realize (and this isn't just gun manufacturers) realize that their products are lacking in areas and try to improve those? For example, what's the first thing you generally do when you buy a 1,000 bow. You strip off the crappy strings and get good ones. Doesn't make sense to me as a consumer. Maybe it makes business sense. :cf:[/QUOTE]

Well, honestly, it's more a result of consumers being irrational than of the manufacturers being so. If Brand X makes a product with a superior quality feature that can't readily be seen, Brands Y & Z will make theirs with a cheaper version of that feature, lowering their production costs and allowing them to undercut Brand X....and most consumers will then walk right past X to buy Y or Z, even if it means spending more later to bring that feature up to snuff. So everyone just makes the lower-cost version so they can remain competitive.

49.) bluecat - 12/22/2015

I guess it depends on the item. If you buy a cadillac, I'm guessing you won't be expecting naugahyde seats that you'll eventually have to swap out for real leather ones.
I see your point though.

50.) DParker - 12/22/2015

[QUOTE=bluecat;37488]I guess it depends on the item. If you buy a cadillac, I'm guessing you won't be expecting naugahyde seats that you'll eventually have to swap out for real leather ones.
I see your point though.[/QUOTE]

Correct. I should have qualified my comment by saying that it applies mostly to non-luxury markets (with "luxury" being defined as the higher end of the price spectrum for a given type of product).

51.) Swamp Fox - 12/22/2015

"Quality doesn't sell itself." You would think it would, but it doesn't.

I think it's a lot easier for a company to sell high volumes of crap than a sufficient volume of high-quality product. Selling quality involves a large investment in time, money and people, and most companies don't want to deal with that if they can hit their targets selling something else.

52.) bluecat - 12/22/2015

[QUOTE=Swamp Fox;37490]"Quality doesn't sell itself." You would think it would, but it doesn't.

[/QUOTE]

Kinda sad.

53.) Jon - 12/23/2015

Selling stuff is funny because people (in general) buy things based on what the company selling it has to say about it.
IE. When I had multiple bow lines in the shop, the higher priced bows sold 3-1 times more than the cheap ones. Sure, there were folks looking to only spend x amount and they gravitated to the cheaper bows BUT if someone came in without knowledge of what they wanted to buy, they almost always bought the more expensive model because they THOUGHT it would be better based on price.

54.) Bob Peck - 12/23/2015

[QUOTE=Jon;37503]Selling stuff is funny because people (in general) buy things based on what the company selling it has to say about it.
IE. When I had multiple bow lines in the shop, the higher priced bows sold 3-1 times more than the cheap ones. Sure, there were folks looking to only spend x amount and they gravitated to the cheaper bows BUT if someone came in without knowledge of what they wanted to buy, they almost always bought the more expensive model because they THOUGHT it would be better based on price.[/QUOTE]Brilliant and succinct words.

The battle from a manufacturers standpoint (and I've worked for 3 of them) in order of importance is:

[B]1. Manufacturability [/B]
How can you make the product and make money? Put another way ... where can you cut corners and increase margin?

[B]2. Price Point [/B]
Who are you competing against in the category and how can you undercut them or out-market them?

[B]3. Brand [/B]
What's your brand stand for and how can you maintain some product integrity without harming the brand?

If your company or product doesn't have any brand awareness to the average consumer then there has to be some strategy to focus attention. Brand sells *BIG* but takes years and a boatload of money to build. A good example is Mathews. They sold Ferrari bows at top dollars for years. They were made well, at the time engineered better than the average bow, they had a business model that was unique (and restrictive), they invested hundred of millions on advertising over the years, sponsorships, TV shows, celebrity endorsements and were everywhere you were. The brand sold. In fact, most Mathews dealers would say customers walked through the door pre-sold. Then the archery Ferrari market got saturated with other alternatives and the potential Ferrari bow buyers began to dry up. The result was flat revenue to the company. They didn't lose market share but they weren't increasing revenue. Hence, without damaging the Ferrari bow brand along came Mission and a whole new revenue stream to the company. Thousands of examples just like this in archery and firearms.

What all that had to do with Cerakote I cannot say.:ek:

55.) Swamp Fox - 12/23/2015

[QUOTE=Jon;37503]... BUT if someone came in without knowledge of what they wanted to buy, they almost always bought the more expensive model because they THOUGHT it would be better based on price.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bob Peck;37504]If your company or product doesn't have any brand awareness to the average consumer then there has to be some strategy to focus attention. Brand sells *BIG* but takes years and a boatload of money to build. A good example is Mathews. They sold Ferrari bows at top dollars for years. They were made well, at the time engineered better than the average bow, they had a business model that was unique (and restrictive), they invested hundred of millions on advertising over the years, sponsorships, TV shows, celebrity endorsements and were everywhere you were. The brand sold. In fact, most Mathews dealers would say customers walked through the door pre-sold.

...

[/QUOTE]


:tu: