1.) Swamp Fox - 09/30/2015

I'd appreciate any and all thoughts on this in general, and about anything you have to say about NC's situation specifically.

If you have a negative gut reaction to deer farming/breeding to start with, please put some meat on the bone, because I am looking for thoughts beyond "Deer shouldn't be farmed" and "Real hunting is going down the tubes." Please try to put your thoughts in context of the Wildlife Commission vs. Ag Dept vs. CWD issues highlighted in the news coverage.


I'll start off with a few links for background, and come back later or add more info if necessary. If you are motivated to surf the topic and happen to come across any links that would be helpful to me, I'd love to see them, whether they are informational or opinion-based.


[url]http://www.wral.com/deer-farming-bill-heads-to-governor/14935907/[/url]


[url]http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=4649[/url]


[url]http://buckbreeders.com/articles/fear-mongering-rages-north-carolina%E2%80%99s-deer-farm-debate[/url]



[url]http://buckbreeders.com/articles/nc-deer-farming-bill-advances[/url]

2.) Wild Bob - 09/30/2015

This may not be enough meat on the bone for you, but I'll pitch this out there...

To me the big question boils down to where we want to go with this (long term)...Are we willing to permit a wild animal to be domesticated? What truly is that the end goal for promoting deer farming? What is the end goal that we want to achieve? (Some would debate that there is a whole slew of moral questions to be sorted through just on my first statement alone.) What about biological issues, not to mention philosophical considerations? (I don't have time now to check out your links, but I am sure they delve into some if not all of these considerations.)

Considering a similar situation (animal that is both domestic and wild) in regards to cattle and hunting; I understand they still hunt wild bovines in some areas of the world (New Zealand, Hawaii and Australia come readily to mind). But hunting those wild bovines compared to undomesticated critters doesn't seem to be as highly sought after hunting opportunity. I guess another good comparison that would easily lean in the [I]other [/I] direction, could be wild hogs. How many hunters love to hunt feral hogs despite there being a healthy population of domesticated cousins? Many hunters, myself included.

From another angle though; what if there was herd after herd of domestic Cape buffalo, would we still be willing to pay 14 grand to hunt one??? I'm sure some people would, but for me, that would be low on my bucket list, as first I'd want to pursue 'wild' species.

In my opinion, I think [I]perception [/I] has a lot to do with what is welcome and what is not (in regards to whether a domesticated animal can or should also be hunted). I cannot consider the previous three examples and not arrive at that conclusion... How is that many hunters are OK with one animal being both domesticated and also considered viable hunting prey, while they are not so much OK with it for another animal? IMHO, the perception of what is truly wild and the origins of what is or isn't wild has value and is key in forming our outlook such matters.

3.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

Here are two other articles that might be useful:


[url]http://www.ncwf.org/images/docs/Deer_Farms_NCWF_Journal_Summer_14.pdf[/url]


[url]http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article10141118.html[/url]

4.) Hunter - 10/01/2015

Haven't looked at your links but what is your definition of deer farming?

5.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

I would say that deer farming is raising and breeding deer, actively, primarily for commercial purposes. Herd management, whether of free-range deer or low-or high-fenced deer, is not deer farming. A few pet deer in a pen is not deer farming. To me, deer farming involves direct manipulation of the animals.

If people are short on time, I'd read the last link first, then move to the one before that. Finish up with the others in your spare time, LOL.

You'll probably get the sense that this a CWD thing primarily, with a lot of pressure to be able to import deer from out of state (we have no CWD here at this point). On the out-going side, there is not much opportunity for marketing venison for the table, at least at this time. Mostly, there is an opportunity to sell deer to other breeders, hunting preserves or canned hunting operations (out of state) with some potential (I suppose) to develop and export breeding services (semen sales, etc.)

6.) Hunter - 10/01/2015

I would be very surprised if they would allow importing from out of state particularly because of the threat of CWD. Deer breeding is big business in Texas who do not allow importing from out of state. CWD has recently shown up in a breeding operation for the 1st time. I suspect regulations are going to a lot tougher very soon.

7.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

I haven't seen the pro-farming bill (or at least it's a bill that's more favorable than many would like) that is going to the governor yet, but it made a surprising recovery from the dead the other day...Somehow...I haven't figured out how yet.

But I do know there's been a lot of complaining that importation has been shut down for the last 12 years or so. I haven't seen anything that things have changed, but as I say, I'm not totally up to speed on this, partly because I thought it wasn't going to go ANYWHERE. There have apparently been a few compromises made since I was last paying close attention.


At one point you couldn't find a pro-hunting voice that was giving an inch on the issue. NC Wildlife Federation and their Camo Coalition has been solidly against the deer farmers the whole way.

Deer farming is very, very tiny in NC. Less than ten farms, I think, with only a few having more than a handful of deer. The biggest operation is in the neighborhood of 200 deer, I believe. Some details in the last link.



Correction: less than 40 farms....about 800 animals, including a few elk. [I]Only three farmers have more than 75 cervids, and 26 of the farms have fewer than 10 animals each.
[/I]
Read more here: [url]http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article10141118.html#storylink=cpy[/url]

8.) Wild Bob - 10/01/2015

"To me, deer farming involves direct manipulation of the animals."

Regarding this topic in my mind - (And I'm sure this would vary for person to person) the first questions in analyzing this matter directly related why or should we do any manipulating would be moral in nature. All biological or scientific rationalizations aside, if we don't look at an issue from a moral and/or ethical stand point, then we are not acting in our full capacity as humans. Regardless of the topic; rationalization is the ability that sets us apart from the very animal we may be trying to manipulate.

9.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

Okay, leaving research aside (I'm not sure what "biological" motives fit into the "scientific" category; they would seem to me to all fit some other category, such as breeding or management) I can think of a few instances where deer farming would be looked on unfavorably, and others where I, at least, would look on it favorably. Again, leaving research aside.

So where does that leave us? LOL

++++

Without having dug too deep at this point, I'm wondering why do CWD outbreaks seem relatively rare, with all the deer farming and supplemental feeding that's going on in some locations? I'm not talking about the [I]spread[/I] of the disease. I'm talking about the initial appearance of the first cases.


Relatively recent import bans (body parts or live animals) and prohibitions or restrictions on baiting or supplemental feeding don't seem to have prevented the disease from popping up here and there.


++++


Here's a little on hopes for a vaccine:


[I]For the study, researchers exposed 11 deer to CWD. Five deer were then treated with various doses of a CWD vaccine. The other six were given placebos.

The 11 deer were housed together throughout the experiment.

Within two years, all six of the control deer developed CWD infections. The median survival of unvaccinated deer was 600 days, Wisniewski said.

The treated deer survived an average of 900 days, and one deer — which received the highest dose of vaccine — is still alive.

[/I]
[url]http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/experimental-vaccine-partially-successful-at-preventing-cwd-in-deer-b99414488z1-286727271.html[/url]


So, it took unvaccinated penned deer exposed to CWD two years for all six to develop the infection, with average "survival" of 600 days...Whether that's 600 days in their entire lives or 600 days post-infection, is my question. Either would be a decent lifespan for even healthy deer in the wild, LOL, especially some places, but if the 600 days is post-infection, that's an eye-opener. From the stories out there, you get the impression CWD-infected deer drop like wasps out of the nest after a dose of Raid. Treated deer get an average of an extra 10 months on the earth, compared to untreated deer.


Intellesting...

10.) billy b - 10/01/2015

CWD has been found on a ranch in Texas, the game department at this time is keeping it quiet while they investigate, but this is possible that this becomes a big story with far reaching ramifications. Hopefully not. Here's a link, this was told to me by a friend with game warden friends.

Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) - Texas Parks and Wildlife
[url]http://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/releases/?req=20150701a[/url]

11.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

"Two year-old deer."



From Billy's link:

[I]Although animal health and wildlife officials cannot say how long or to what extent the disease has been present in the Medina County deer breeding facility, the breeder has had an active CWD surveillance program since 2006 with no positives detected until now.[/I]



This seems to be a recurring theme in my reading. Testing and certification that goes well at facilities for years, and then BAM!

12.) Hunter - 10/01/2015

There's so much to say on this subject and I don't think I am a man of that many words:re:

But, being that a small part of our operation is breeding in an effort to improve genetics, I may be a little biased. In my opinion, Potential NC deer breeders would have a hard time growing big deer without importing from out of state. It is hard enough to regulate in-state without having to worry about all the other places deer can come from regardless of how long those places have been certified.
The breeder in Texas had been in business for years and following all the regulations and yet he suddenly has a CWD case. Where did it come from? That is the question!
I think TPWD has done a good job in not going into panic mode but did immediately lock down all release and transport of captive deer. Unfortunately, in the past few years he had sold deer to about 100 different facilities in the state. He sold to both "Kick and shoot" operations and other breeders. Because of regulations in place all these deer could be tracked. Any deer found still to be Alive was tested. All deer in direct contact with infected deer were tested. If I'm not mistaken, three more out of 6 in same pen of original case were positive. I believe they have found one more positive but not sure if it was in original herd or someplace else.

Any facility not connected to the original index herd ( this would be us) can resume releasing deer as long as they are in compliance with all testing regulations (20% of all fatalities.)
I could go on and on but would rather not.
Any questions? (That's like handing a loaded gun to Swampy :grin:)

TPWD has held a couple of open meetings to update and answer questions.

There is a big debate in the state (this is not something new) on allowing deer breeding.

13.) Hunter - 10/01/2015

CWD has been found in a few Mule Deer in West Texas. This is the first case in a breeding facility.

14.) Hunter - 10/01/2015

Good video put together by Keith Warren about CWD

[url]http://youtu.be/1_ltc3dNsPk[/url]

15.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

[QUOTE=Hunter;35013]

Potential NC deer breeders would have a hard time growing big deer without importing from out of state.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Given enough time, some NC deer have the ability to get "Southern big" but "TV big" is a whole 'nother level which few achieve, even with time, crops and a secure hidey-hole.


[QUOTE=Hunter;35013]It is hard enough to regulate in-state without having to worry about all the other places deer can come from regardless of how long those places have been certified.
The breeder in Texas had been in business for years and following all the regulations and yet he suddenly has a CWD case. Where did it come from? That is the question! [/QUOTE]

Exactamundo!


Good info, Hunter. Thanks for the input.

16.) billy b - 10/01/2015

You are correct Hunter,I think (Hope) they nipped it in the bud, thankfully there is a test now that can be applied without testing the brain cells. From what I can gather the live test is not as trustworthy as the brain cell test ( that info was several months ago), it could have changed since then. I was told that the facility was being required to kill & test all animals, hopefully that plan was changed.

17.) Swamp Fox - 10/01/2015

[QUOTE=Hunter;35015]Good video put together by Keith Warren about CWD

[url]http://youtu.be/1_ltc3dNsPk[/url][/QUOTE]



Thanks for that. Well presented. It confirms some of my suspicions and echoes some of my questions.

18.) Hunter - 10/01/2015

[QUOTE=billy b;35017]You are correct Hunter,I think (Hope) they nipped it in the bud, thankfully there is a test now that can be applied without testing the brain cells. From what I can gather the live test is not as trustworthy as the brain cell test ( that info was several months ago), it could have changed since then. I was told that the facility was being required to kill & test all animals, hopefully that plan was changed.[/QUOTE]

Evidently, there are a couple of tests that are about 90% reliable but haven't been "approved" by whomever yet. I would rather test entire herd with 90% reliable test than percentage of herd with 100% reliable test that was fatal. but, that's just me.

I'm afraid that the entire index herd has been destroyed.

Billy, I sent you a PM